Timing (paddling in and drop-in)

[steveylang]

So I had posted in another thread that I was having problems dropping into bigger waves, I would try to pop up and either keep missing waves or get 'bogged down' even if I was on the wave, and still miss my ride. The last 3-4 weeks I've made some really good strides improving my timing and success rate, and wanted to post what I've learned, maybe you guys can give me further feedback.

First, I am finally starting to get a good paddle down that works for me, the most impactful tips I've learned are to keep your elbows up on the upstroke, but dig deep down on the downstroke. This keeps my forearm as vertical and deep as possible through the stroke, which maximizes the actual thrust I feel I get on each paddle (I got the verticality tip from a Rob Case video.)

Now to timing. As a beginner I think we tend to start further outside to avoid getting caught inside, which means paddling early to get to a good takeoff point and also generate speed since the wave face is usually much less than 45 degrees. Being on a bigger board helps enable this as well.

But I think that approach messed up my timing on more critical and bigger waves. What I was doing was paddling hard early, then relaxing when I saw/felt the wave catch me thinking okay, now the wave will take over. Feeling the water under me being sucked up the face probably gave me the impression that I was starting to go down the wave, when I actually was not quite there yet. So I'd try to pop up, but basically no dice- worst case I'd get sucked up and go over the falls, best case I'd manage a sloppy drop in but end up behind the shoulder. My beginner perception was that on a bigger/faster/steeper wave I have less time and need to pop up sooner, and acting on that perception really worked against me. Popping up sooner is fine, IF you have actually finished paddling into the wave.

So what I do now is the opposite- give a couple of paddles to start moving before the wave reaches me, but then paddle hard right when as the wave is reaching me (I have developed the positive habit of looking back and not just relying on feeling the wave.) This is the time where the extra paddle effort keeps you from getting sucked into the falls, and really gets you started going down the face. I don't stop immediately either, I 'paddle through' until I look and have a good sense of where I'm going to try to go on the wave- at this point it feels like an extra 2 paddles is better than not enough paddles.

Doing this has enabled me to start further inside, because I'm much less afraid of pearling or going over the falls. And since the wave angle is steeper, my hit rate is much higher. Instead of paddling to try to catch the wave, it feels more like paddling to get ahead of it, and then drop right in. Drop-ins always feel kind of chaotic with everything happening around you, but I'm starting to look forward to that rush. In smaller surf I will now go for waves that I think are 50/50 gonna crash on top of me, because I can actually now make some (if I don't catch a rail) and I figure it's good for learning even if I wipe out. Then there are times where my timing is still all wrong, but it's still more reps anyway.

The thing I'm trying to work on now (well one of the things), is to look and have a plan of where I'm going to go, before I pop up. Seems painfully obvious but I literally never did that before because I was so focused on just trying to catch the wave! Mainly I'm trying to see an open green path on the face to avoid going into the flats, and 'seeing' it before it happens is increasing my success rate there (this is at a beach break so more often that not I'm not in the ideal take off point to get an easier glide-in.) The Carver board is helping me develop a sense of how to carve and eventually bottom turn, but I'm not there yet.

As beginners we try to soak up as much information as possible, but there is still a step where you have to learn how to subjectively recognize when and how to apply different tips/lessons. The TLDR version of my post is just, "I paddle harder when the wave lifts me up and it helps my drop ins", but if I read that alone somewhere (in fact I'm sure I have), I still wasn't able to put 2 and 2 together when I'm actually in the water.

[oldmansurfer]

I think surfing is a complex thing. All this stuff you have to learn to do it. Reading the waves paddling popping up and then surfing. Hand in hand with learning to take a drop is learning to do a bottom turn. You say you manage to do a sloppy drop in but end up behind the shoulder I currently shoot for dropping in behind the shoulder. I count on my bottom turn to place me back in front. You will never be good at taking a steep drop without learning a good bottom turn so I would say you need to work on your bottom turn otherwise it will seem pointless that you made the drop. You have to be up to par on the next move too so working just on the drop isn't going to work. Anyway that is my advice work at getting a good hard driving bottom turn that will generate speed down the line.

[steveylang]

Thanks for the reply! The sloppy drops were when my timing was off, it wasn't just sloppy in terms of not being on the peak but I had no forward momentum at all to really make any kind of drop. I'd get caught up in the whitewater and fall off, or get passed by the wave.

So now my drop-ins are getting a LOT better, but I mainly try to angle my pop up to get to the face right away. Your point is very well taken that I need to learn to do a proper bottom turn! Right now I get way too precious with waves and not want to fall off. At the very least when I find myself going into the flats, I need to try to bottom turn even if the wave is a close out or I think I'm gonna fall, just to practice and try getting the move down. Along with practicing on my Carver, it shouldn't take me too long before I'm attempting bottom turns on more waves in general. Come to think of it, there are times when I do see I'm gonna pop up behind the shoulder, whenever I see that I should recognize that as an opportunity to try a bottom turn.

I know sometimes I drop in straight towards shore and am able to turn and get back on the face, but for sure I don't have the move down. Right now my plan/goal is to get bottom turns and basic carving down over the summer- I'll be pretty psyched if I'm there by fall!

I believe I have read that a proper bottom turn can get you gliding on the wave face as fast or faster than just an angled drop in (in addition to being able to get by sections), is this correct?

[oldmansurfer]

Angling the board gives you down the line speed and if you ride higher on the wave then you get more speed. However if you can turn up and down the wave doing speed turns that is the fastest but a good bottom turn should get more speed down the line than angling. On really steep waves I angle and bottom turn. People say a wave "closed out" on them and what that often means is it broke faster than they could keep up with. If you learn to go faster then there will be less "closeouts". It gets to me that pro surfers chose to do maneuvers rather than make the next section so they say they did the maneuver in the closeout section but it may not be a closeout section and instead they chose to do a maneuver to get points instead of one to make the section. If they could have made the section is it still a closeout? it looks like on from a close angle but really it is about the point system. Those guys/girls make incredibly fast sections if they want to but it seems sometimes at least they don't want to and it gets called a closeout maneuver

[Ratfinksurfer]

I wish there were some way to explain to my muscles how to make a steep drop. It seems as though I've only really successfully popped up on my longboard. Which is a very different sensation to making a drop on a shortboard. When I pop-up on my shortboard I always go straight. I've never been able to "go down the line" or "catch the shoulder". I'm right there with this post. I think the sensation of the water sucking up the face also makes me think, "It's time to pop-up!" And I find myself like Goofy standing on the top of the pitching wave watching another surfer slide down the face. But sitting inside and paddling harder is kind of both intimidating and counter-intuitive. It seems like experienced surfers make this technique look so effortless. Wave comes, paddle, pop-up, easy. I need to look over my shoulder and paddle harder.

[waikikikichan]

I believe I have read that a proper bottom turn can get you gliding on the wave face as fast or faster than just an angled drop in, is this correct?

https://www.instagram.com/p/BiXrB1mAM9Z/?hl=en&taken-by=kook_of_the_day
That depends if you have the proper paddle, board and type of break. This guy really got angled in on the take off.

[RinkyDink]

But I think that approach messed up my timing on more critical and bigger waves.

Not bigger waves necessarily. Watch this video at the 4:05 mark.

That's a pretty big wave. Does it look like a difficult takeoff, though? I don’t think the difficulty of a takeoff has as much to do with the size of the wave as it does with the wave’s shape. There are a lot of 2 ft shorebreak waves that are pretty damn hard to take off on. My only point is that what makes taking off on bigger waves difficult is often our anxiety over the size of the wave. I'm not saying that you should throw caution to the wind, but it's good to be aware of the things that can affect your takeoff.

So what I do now is the opposite- give a couple of paddles to start moving before the wave reaches me, but then paddle hard right when as the wave is reaching me (I have developed the positive habit of looking back and not just relying on feeling the wave.) This is the time where the extra paddle effort keeps you from getting sucked into the falls, and really gets you started going down the face. I don't stop immediately either, I 'paddle through' until I look and have a good sense of where I'm going to try to go on the wave- at this point it feels like an extra 2 paddles is better than not enough paddles.

I had a similar breakthrough in my takeoffs on steeper waves. One thing I experienced was that if I got the pacing of my paddling wrong, I could break the ledge of the wave while I was still paddling. This meant I would start flying down the face of the wave in prone position. Aargh! It looks kooky when it happens and it’s also practically impossible (for me at least) to pop up after breaking the ledge. So if I paddle late on my takeoff, then I need to have the timing right.

[oldmansurfer]

I like dropping down steep faces. It's really thrilling and exciting. I love dropping down feeling that I am almost free falling. Once I actually did free fall on a takeoff. It happened because long ago I used to surf a single fin board and on really steep waves I would do a side slipping takeoff where I turn at the top or sharply angle the board to face down the line right at the top of the wave. This makes the fin pop out of the water and I slide down sideways till I get to the less steep part of the wave and the fin grabs and I shoot forward at a very fast pace. This does not work with multiple fins well at least not as well. I did manage to do this on a small fast breaking wave but maybe not quite the same because the lip had to push me out to get the fins to release. Anyway I quit surfing for 12 years and started on a thruster then moved on to a quad. I was on the quad on a steep wave and attempted to do that maneuver. It was just muscle memory I didn't consciously try to do it just an old habit. I had done this a few times prior with drastic results because both a thruster and a quad hold the face better than a single fin on a steep wave. So I catch myself and turn back down so the board is facing the beach but by then the wave has gone concave below me and I figured I was going to be airborne and sure enough I fell off the top but I was positioned well and balanced so I kind of brought the board up under me as I fell by slowly crouching and as I got to the bottom I slowly extended my legs to meet the water at the bottom. I landed and thought "WOW! I am still on my board" and cranked a bottom turn and kept going and had a really good ride. I think it is the adrenaline that makes it all possible. I didn't train for this or anything just spur of the moment out of necessity action.
I do another type of late takeoff that is something like Goofy above at least a couple times a year. I am paddling for a wave and it breaks in front of me as I paddle so it crumbles down in front of me and I can feel the wave pulling me along as if I had caught it so I popup and ride the whitewater down the wave make a bottom turn to get back onto the unbroken face of the wave.
On both of those type of drops you would not make the wave if you couldn't do a good strong bottom turn.

[Big H]

I wish there were some way to explain to my muscles how to make a steep drop. It seems as though I've only really successfully popped up on my longboard. Which is a very different sensation to making a drop on a shortboard. When I pop-up on my shortboard I always go straight.

Gotta free your mind up.....really no different (unless you are consciously/unconsiously using your toes to pop up).....head high, look down the line before popping up and while you are popping up.....you will magically go there.

[oldmansurfer]

But I think that approach messed up my timing on more critical and bigger waves.

Not bigger waves necessarily. Watch this video at the 4:05 mark.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=li4SG7FPTtE
That's a pretty big wave. Does it look like a difficult takeoff, though? I don’t think the difficulty of a takeoff has as much to do with the size of the wave as it does with the wave’s shape. There are a lot of 2 ft shorebreak waves that are pretty damn hard to take off on. My only point is that what makes taking off on bigger waves difficult is often our anxiety over the size of the wave. I'm not saying that you should throw caution to the wind, but it's good to be aware of the things that can affect your takeoff.

So what I do now is the opposite- give a couple of paddles to start moving before the wave reaches me, but then paddle hard right when as the wave is reaching me (I have developed the positive habit of looking back and not just relying on feeling the wave.) This is the time where the extra paddle effort keeps you from getting sucked into the falls, and really gets you started going down the face. I don't stop immediately either, I 'paddle through' until I look and have a good sense of where I'm going to try to go on the wave- at this point it feels like an extra 2 paddles is better than not enough paddles.

I had a similar breakthrough in my takeoffs on steeper waves. One thing I experienced was that if I got the pacing of my paddling wrong, I could break the ledge of the wave while I was still paddling. This meant I would start flying down the face of the wave in prone position. Aargh! It looks kooky when it happens and it’s also practically impossible (for me at least) to pop up after breaking the ledge. So if I paddle late on my takeoff, then I need to have the timing right.

I watched that takeoff. He had to angle it because the wave was breaking already and popped up in the whitewater which can be real tricky on a big wave. He may have made it look easy. But yeah it's not just size that makes a drop more difficult. There is so much that goes into surfing. Before I ever surfed I body boarded waves that size so size wasn't too intimidating to me. How to get over that intimidation factor is just to do small steps go smaller and work your way up. Go slopier and work toward steeper. Go shoulder hopping and go for further inside the lineup. Small steps

[dtc]

It can be easy (ok, speaking for myself ...) to fall into a habit of sitting a bit too far out. Getting in early when less steep. On softer waves this doesn’t cause an issue, you might have to force the board over the crest now and then because you are a bit far back, but you have the time to do it

However it catches you out on faster waves or waves where the lip is plunging a bit; on those waves you must take off below the lip, there is no other option.

Sometimes it’s just a matter of forcing yourself a bit further in and taking off when it’s a bit steeper. Fixing up your positioning and trusting that the wave won’t actually break onto your head...

[jaffa1949]

The exact point of pop up varies , too early and you slide off the back of the wave or lose control of the tail rising and nose dive.

To late and the board is accelerating away down the face and you cannot pop up as there is no resistance to push your self up against, resulting in the sleigh ride to the bottom with very little control and ending with a white water take off really and not much chance ofgetting to the face
The exact position. Is where there is enough board resistance to push up against and the pop forces the board into the gravity chute, and power the first bottom turn.

Without these skills any surfing you think you are doing is delusional, training wheels stuff, no shame we all went through it, don't avoid wipeouts learn why and evolve from them.

[BoMan]

The exact point of pop up varies , too early and you slide off the back of the wave or lose control of the tail rising and nose dive.

To late and the board is accelerating away down the face and you cannot pop up as there is no resistance to push your self up against, resulting in the sleigh ride to the bottom with very little control and ending with a white water take off really and not much chance ofgetting to the face. The exact position. Is where there is enough board resistance to push up against and the pop forces the board into the gravity chute, and power the first bottom turn.

Well said! Wave Count is important for getting the feel for when to pop. For me, the exact timing changes with the tide, wave and the break I'm surfing but (as Jaffa says) the feeling of "when there is enough board resistantance to push up against" remains constant. Surf as often as you can and build a bank of experience.

[waikikikichan]

Just a little different way of thinking or approaching the Take Off / Pop Up might be needed. Just as I teach students to Come Back instead of Cut back ( cause if you come back to the curl you automatically turn - form follows function ), I think maybe get away from thinking Pop UP. On a longboard, you can get in early and you have to blast off the deck to get your feet under you. On a shortboard, you're basically free fall and JUMP BACK DOWN onto the board. Watch shortboard videos and you can see the board fall away from the rider and the rider extend ( opposite of retract ) their legs downward. You might notice their head stays on the same plane. That's a problem with beginners transitioning TOO soon from their long(er) boards. They are still holding onto their pop UPWARDS. They have to approach more like a throwing a Skim board ( or even a skateboard ) down and jumping on it.

[oldmansurfer]

That's interesting Waikikichan. I learned to surf on a shortboard on unbroken waves so it was always falling down the face. When I restarted on a longboard on unbroken waves it was still falling down the face. I would never have known there was any other way to do it but then I didn't learn on whitewater or nice waves like Waikiki. It's great to have you here to explain things for everyone.

[steveylang]

Thanks for all the feedback everyone! So far the combination of paddling into steeper waves and getting that burst of paddles at the right time has really improved my hit rate. At times I end up on the other side of timing- taking off too late- but my natural inclination/fear is to not want to get caught inside so pushing against this is improving my timing and surfing. Catching say 6 waves and wiping out on 2 others, is much better than only being able to catch 3 without any wipeouts (surf has not been big lately.)

Just a little different way of thinking or approaching the Take Off / Pop Up might be needed. Just as I teach students to Come Back instead of Cut back ( cause if you come back to the curl you automatically turn - form follows function ), I think maybe get away from thinking Pop UP. On a longboard, you can get in early and you have to blast off the deck to get your feet under you. On a shortboard, you're basically free fall and JUMP BACK DOWN onto the board. Watch shortboard videos and you can see the board fall away from the rider and the rider extend ( opposite of retract ) their legs downward. You might notice their head stays on the same plane. That's a problem with beginners transitioning TOO soon from their long(er) boards. They are still holding onto their pop UPWARDS. They have to approach more like a throwing a Skim board ( or even a skateboard ) down and jumping on it.

I think this tip will help me too, as I am popping up on more vertical faces. Just as thinking/approaching the paddle-in differently helped there, what you say about popping up feels very right to me too. When I go for a surf I find it's counter-productive to try to have 3 or 4 different tips in my mind (it's too much and I end up doing none of them), but if I go with just one then it's more likely I can actually surf with the concept in mind.

[saltydog]

.....head high, look down the line before popping up and while you are popping up.....you will magically go there.

Looking down the line as you pop up in addition to angling the board has really made a difference in my ability to take off on steeper waves.

The exact point of pop up varies , too early and you slide off the back of the wave or lose control of the tail rising and nose dive.

To late and the board is accelerating away down the face and you cannot pop up as there is no resistance to push your self up against, resulting in the sleigh ride to the bottom with very little control and ending with a white water take off really and not much chance ofgetting to the face
The exact position. Is where there is enough board resistance to push up against and the pop forces the board into the gravity chute, and power the first bottom turn.

Without these skills any surfing you think you are doing is delusional, training wheels stuff, no shame we all went through it, don't avoid wipeouts learn why and evolve from them.

Just a little different way of thinking or approaching the Take Off / Pop Up might be needed. Just as I teach students to Come Back instead of Cut back ( cause if you come back to the curl you automatically turn - form follows function ), I think maybe get away from thinking Pop UP. On a longboard, you can get in early and you have to blast off the deck to get your feet under you. On a shortboard, you're basically free fall and JUMP BACK DOWN onto the board. Watch shortboard videos and you can see the board fall away from the rider and the rider extend ( opposite of retract ) their legs downward. You might notice their head stays on the same plane. That's a problem with beginners transitioning TOO soon from their long(er) boards. They are still holding onto their pop UPWARDS. They have to approach more like a throwing a Skim board ( or even a skateboard ) down and jumping on it.

You two have totally clarified what has happened to me. Awesome!

[steveylang]

.....head high, look down the line before popping up and while you are popping up.....you will magically go there.

I finally started doing this today, and it made a huge difference just as you said- thanks! I think when you are getting started the first big hurdle is paddling into waves. So all your attention is focused on that (and probably rightly so), but when you catch one and pop up, you haven't prepared for actually riding the wave so just hope for the best- try to go down the line and hope you're in somewhat decent position.

Until now, I realized that when I'm paddling I'm mainly looking at my board to see if I've caught the wave and also check if I'm pearling. But by looking down the line I can see where and when to go, so pearling seems much less of an issue. Who would've thought that if you actually turned your head and just looked, you can figure out how to ride the wave?

The exact point of pop up varies , too early and you slide off the back of the wave or lose control of the tail rising and nose dive.

To late and the board is accelerating away down the face and you cannot pop up as there is no resistance to push your self up against, resulting in the sleigh ride to the bottom with very little control and ending with a white water take off really and not much chance ofgetting to the face
The exact position. Is where there is enough board resistance to push up against and the pop forces the board into the gravity chute, and power the first bottom turn.

I think looking down the line helps with this? Because I think I have a better sense of where I am on the face. So far when I mistime it, I am almost always trying to pop up too early rather than too late. But I'm sure there will be plenty of the other for me as well, probably with larger/steeper waves. On my 7'3" board I'm tending to angle my pop-up to prevent catching my nose, which probably slows that sleigh ride down a bit too.

Without these skills any surfing you think you are doing is delusional, training wheels stuff, no shame we all went through it, don't avoid wipeouts learn why and evolve from them.

I'm starting to take more chances on late drop-ins (hey let's just see if I can make this one!), because I know they will increase my exposure and experience level, and it feels really good when you pull it off! I'm not typically riding big waves, so the only thing that can be hurt is my pride. What I have realized is that I almost never regret paddling into a wave (regardless of outcome), but plenty of times I've regretted NOT paddling into a wave.

[oldmansurfer]

Sounds like you are doing well. It all takes time and it is good to practice everything on small waves. Everyone thinks surfing is just about riding waves but lots of important things go on before you even ride a wave. The obvious one is paddling but even before that there is reading the waves, knowing where to be in the lineup (knowing how to get out through the waves to that point), knowing which wave to catch and knowing your own skills as they relate to the waves and the board you are using. It's much safer to go in small increments learn to do everything on smaller waves then gradually increase the size. The actual riding is a whole other story that only happens after you can paddle and position yourself and figure out which wave to catch. But one of the most important skills is knowing how to wipeout without getting hurt and it sounds like you are getting lots of practice at that

[steveylang]

Yeah, everyone has their perfect 'Goldilocks' sized wave, but in Malibu it's easier when it's a bit smaller rather than a bit bigger. The beach breaks often close out in bigger surf, and the point breaks get too crowded. When it's smaller there's just less headache.

There are some less accessible points (park and 20 minute walk) that I'm scoping out to try, would love to find a point that doesn't get packed whenever it's 2 ft. plus!