Getting to the next stage...

[bajoman]

Hi All,
I'm riding a 9'2 epoxy longboard on an East Coast (NY, USA) beachbreak usually about thigh to stomach high. I'm a 70kg(160lbs) advanced beginner (catching 75% of what I go for, popping with few problems and heading down the line) and stoked, but I'm looking to step-up my skills (turns and noseriding!). My board is a 2+1 with an 8" center fin and I've been interested in riding it as a single to learn the tradition but here's my question: As far as progressing is concerned am I better off sticking with the 2+1 set-up or should I go to the single fin (I planned on using the 8" fin and putting it all the way back in the box). There's so many variables- turning vs. noseriding vs. drag vs. appropriate conditions, etc. that I don't feel like I have the experience or wisdom to make the best choice for myself! Any recommendations? Thanks!

[beachbumuk]

check out Uncle Jaffa's Fin schooling on the "lessons for all" its good stuff

[bajoman]

Thanks beachbumuk- I did check it out, great info, but it doesn't really answer my question: At my stage, will single fin or 2+1 be best for my progress (or will it matter at all)? Looking to noseride and work on turns- should I concentrate on one before the other? And what's the best setup to learn them on?

[behindThePeak]

A lot depends on the shape of your board. Rocker, rails (front, back & transitions) tail shape, outline, bottom contours, Etc...

Work on both at once. The wave dictates what style to use. round and slow: surf with long carves and easy cutbacks. steep and fast: line up behind the peak and run to the nose.

Personally I'm a fan of a single fin, but you gotta have the right board shape to support it.

But really, you can make any fin setup work.

[jaffa1949]

Thanks beachbumuk- I did check it out, great info, but it doesn't really answer my question: At my stage, will single fin or 2+1 be best for my progress (or will it matter at all)? Looking to noseride and work on turns- should I concentrate on one before the other? And what's the best setup to learn them on?

Uncle Jaffa here, since you want to nose ride which is an advanced technique the first steps are to get your turns up and working smoothly.

The essence of longboard surfing is to be able to string effortless turns together and be able to move up and down the face naturally and be able to work the trim of your board to enhance your wave positioning
Practice cross stepping at every opportunity, sort of like a dance studio, nose riding is about feeling the balance of the board, IMO you need to find your boards trim spot first before nose riding, it's an essential part of speed and balance

How? Do your first turn and look to set up riding across the wall, if you can cross step forward, (a shuffle will do but it roughens up the glide needed for nose riding) till you find a point where the board feels like it is continually accelerating ( this is the trim spot) about 3/4 of the way to the nose.
Long boarding uses the trim spot to gain speed and balance for the nose ride, forward of trim you are nose riding. Often noseriding competition board have different colours forward of trim to help judges see the surfer is on the nose.

Practice and control getting from turns to the trim spot and back, gain and maintain speed in doing this.
When you are confident move a little forward see what happens, come back from trim to lay out a turn.
Increase the range of when and where you do this, a lot of wave reading goes into noseriding.

Now for the fins for this either, a single will give you smooth rounder arcs of turn in the beginning a 2+1 system will make your turns easier and more angular.
What is best? The system that helps you do you stuff as easily as possible. Bajo try both if you can feel the difference use the one that feels best to you.

A lot of surfers who feature nose riding above progressive ( shortboard type moves) prefer a heavier single fin board more like the old logs with a deeper fin.

Nothing in any form of surfing is really achieved without gaining the basic wave riding skills and being able to gain speed and flow.
Watch all the good surfers around you, they have all the basics and seem to be able to do everything at speed ( actually they are able to gather speed from everything they do.

Long winded but I hope it helps

Added a picture to show how the trim spot generates speed even on a small wave.

trimming the board

[bajoman]

Thanks guys! I do want to try going to single fin, I just didn't want it to set me back (good days in the spring are too few and far between and I don't want to frustrate myself if there's a new big learning curve involved!) That being said, will my board work with just the 8" single fin or will I have to get a longer one? It's a 9'2 NSP (epoxy) with a squash tail. I'm 163 lbs. (74kg) and average wave height is waist high (that all factors in, right?) Also, should I start out with the single fin at the back of the box or keep it in the middle? Thanks again for the sage advice!

[jaffa1949]

Thanks guys! I do want to try going to single fin, I just didn't want it to set me back (good days in the spring are too few and far between and I don't want to frustrate myself if there's a new big learning curve involved!) That being said, will my board work with just the 8" single fin or will I have to get a longer one? It's a 9'2 NSP (epoxy) with a squash tail. I'm 163 lbs. (74kg) and average wave height is waist high (that all factors in, right?) Also, should I start out with the single fin at the back of the box or keep it in the middle? Thanks again for the sage advice!

The 8" fin should do for starters unless the tail rocker is severe a sort of rule for a single is about 1" per foot so its a little under but since the board and I know the NSP models is set up as a 2 +1, an 8" as a single will do.
Now here is where you can experiment. remember forward in the fin box makes a single and easier to turn take a pencil with you mark where you set up the fin as at this stage getting your turns together is the most important thing.
Put it at the back of the box it will be as stiff as................
BTW a good turn feels so great.

There is no big learning curve involved get out on good and bad days, bloody hell, get frustrated and then figure out what you need to do differently.
To quote an Australian Olympic Trainer " To train without pain is to train without gain!"
I teach corporate training so STOP THINKING ABOUT WHAT YOU DON'T WANT AND FOCUS ON WHAT YOU WANT TO GET OUT OF EACH SESSION! Little bite size improvements.

[Rickyroughneck]

Interesting stuff. One question though, is there much difference between a large centre fin and a smaller centre fin + sidebites? I am in the more performance camp of longboarding, I like noseriding but I find getting to the nose (and back ) more rewarding than staying there. I love to carve but I really want to ride a single fin for the extra straight line drive (less drag from one fin) and to perhaps get into trimming without fear of the rear falling out due to annoying(ly good) sidebite cant.

Would carving be possible with a large single fin, something like this perhaps:

Not too much sweep but high area (that fin is supposedly 10" long). If it is positioned far enough forward, I cannot see the difference in hold/ carving potential.

[jaffa1949]

Uncle Jaffa's fin answer here is, that fin should be fine, the carving will be in rounder arcs especially forward in the box.
You could decrease the side bite size if you wish to turn really tight. Performance wise the side bites open up the upper face of the wave more easily.
Often if you go to the thruster configuration, three smaller fin equal size fins, trim and nose riding, will break the fins free and cause side slip especially if as a performance longboard you've been given more tail rocker .

My personal choice that gives me the options in both nose riding ( and I'm a there and back nose job) and performance everything except airs (can't do them nor do I want to) on medium to bigger waves with power is this configuration

Worked well in Indonesia

file.jpg (39.28 KiB) Viewed 1914 times

Really there is no right answer only what works for you as you wish to ride.
Often we look for a magic something but the answer is to improve and maintain our skills. sometimes in improving we then notice where our equipment is not matching our intent then it's time to change.
I know that sounds like I'm contradicting my self so I suggest try everything, the answer is the surfing.

[Rickyroughneck]

Uncle Jaffa's fin answer here is, that fin should be fine, the carving will be in rounder arcs especially forward in the box.
You could decrease the side bite size if you wish to turn really tight. Performance wise the side bites open up the upper face of the wave more easily.
Often if you go to the thruster configuration, three smaller fin equal size fins, trim and nose riding, will break the fins free and cause side slip especially if as a performance longboard you've been given more tail rocker .

My personal choice that gives me the options in both nose riding ( and I'm a there and back nose job) and performance everything except airs (can't do them nor do I want to) on medium to bigger waves with power is this configuration

file.jpg

Really there is no right answer only what works for you as you wish to ride.
Often we look for a magic something but the answer is to improve and maintain our skills. sometimes in improving we then notice where our equipment is not matching our intent then it's time to change.
I know that sounds like I'm contradicting my self so I suggest try everything, the answer is the surfing.

Mmm thanks for the answer, that makes a lot of sense. Out of curiosity, are the side bites on that board closer to parallel with the board direction? (i.e. less cant). Perhaps that is the key to creating a versatile board that could handle steep faces and noseriding. I heard that straight side-bites make boards stiff and hard to turn though, is that true?

I fully agree that practice and surfing is the best way... the nearest waves are a short drive away and I don't own a car, so I can only get out when I scam lifts from people, which is rarely (I pay petrol money ofc). I don't really have the water time or money to test stuff like fin configurations

[jaffa1949]

Mmm thanks for the answer, that makes a lot of sense. Out of curiosity, are the side bites on that board closer to parallel with the board direction? (i.e. less cant). Perhaps that is the key to creating a versatile board that could handle steep faces and noseriding. I heard that straight side-bites make boards stiff and hard to turn though, is that true?

I fully agree that practice and surfing is the best way... the nearest waves are a short drive away and I don't own a car, so I can only get out when I scam lifts from people, which is rarely (I pay petrol money ofc). I don't really have the water time or money to test stuff like fin configurations

Rickyroughneck the toe in is about 5 degrees and the cant is about 4. Agree with the 0 degree parallel side bite being an issue they effectively increase the over fin base on the board hence harder to turn.

With your travel arrangements I'd go with that single fin.
Cheers Jaffa

[Rickyroughneck]

Mmm thanks for the answer, that makes a lot of sense. Out of curiosity, are the side bites on that board closer to parallel with the board direction? (i.e. less cant). Perhaps that is the key to creating a versatile board that could handle steep faces and noseriding. I heard that straight side-bites make boards stiff and hard to turn though, is that true?

I fully agree that practice and surfing is the best way... the nearest waves are a short drive away and I don't own a car, so I can only get out when I scam lifts from people, which is rarely (I pay petrol money ofc). I don't really have the water time or money to test stuff like fin configurations

Rickyroughneck the toe in is about 5 degrees and the cant is about 4. Agree with the 0 degree parallel side bite being an issue they effectively increase the over fin base on the board hence harder to turn.

With your travel arrangements I'd go with that single fin.
Cheers Jaffa

Ahh toe-in is what I meant, not cant! Haha thanks, now to patiently wait for my current log to snap.

[DaveRocks]

You have to get concerned when guys start showing their fins.

I just collect fins and put 'm in every board I have, to see what they do. I think experimenting is part of the fun. Some effects you won't like but you take a fin tool to the beach and swap it out for another fin or set of fins. If the tail spins out you can start your 360 learning at that moment. If the board turns better it could be time for the round house cutback.

I think its a mistake to be too calculated. If you think about surfing when your surfing, it won't work. Just be happy even if you fall off, but fall trying. Some days are always going to be purple. The day those things you've tried work, its double the fun, but don't think about it.

There has to be a part of your brain that needs your thoughts to get out of the way. When that happens, its like a movie and you're the close-up cameraman. So, don't think, just feel and watch.

Cheers, Dave

[jaffa1949]

Really there is no right answer only what works for you as you wish to ride.
Often we look for a magic something but the answer is to improve and maintain our skills. sometimes in improving we then notice where our equipment is not matching our intent then it's time to change.
I know that sounds like I'm contradicting my self so I suggest try everything, the answer is the surfing.

Dave I am suggesting to all and sundry in any of my posts get out and try different fins configurations etc and find what works. Often these guys and girls are in that stage have little funds to get the hardware to experiment I certainly agree there is no failure in wipeout or different line in a turn just increase in your surfing.
So many beginners are scared to make a mistake, I' m certainly not calculating just a student of fun in my surfing. Will go out with no fin to five fins or spare fins get cut down and redone in some way.
I' m asked and I invite the questioners to question and try for themselves I agree too that surfing is best done with the head out of the way. Your last paragraph says it nicely

[drowningbitbybit]

there is no failure in wipeout

I might get that as a tattoo...

[jaffa1949]

there is no failure in wipeout

I might get that as a tattoo...

I'm 62 and I think I've found a design for my first and probably only tattoo.
I digress Bajoman slight apologies back on thread possibly next reply

[DaveRocks]

"Life is a journey, of cause your going to trip over sometimes." Wipe-out or what ever.

Tooo deep, just have fun. No tats please!

Cheers, Dave.

[jaffa1949]

"Life is a journey, of cause your going to trip over sometimes." Wipe-out or what ever.

Tooo deep, just have fun. No tats please!

Cheers, Dave.

Good news from your perspective Dave, the local Tattooist just got shot dead by the local Bikie Gang TRUE
Yep there's crime in Australia too.

[bajoman]

Hi Guys,
Quick follow up: I took out the sidebites and moved the center fin back just a little and went out in a waist high day. INSTANT LOVE! I could definitely tell there was less drag as I paddled and caught (many more) waves. The looseness of the tail felt great and made a big impact on me. I suddenly felt like I was flowing with the board instead of fighting it and trying to muscle it into turns. I am definitely a convert! Turns are much easier and more natural. Now the question is- when (in my progression or depending on conditions) will I want to put those sidebites back in (if ever)? I'm still working on the noseriding part, too but not much new there. Along those lines, I noticed watching other longboarders that most guys stay back on the tail the whole ride, whereas I feel the need to move forward to the trim spot (for speed or to make a section) at some point on almost every ride. Not sure why that is?

[jaffa1949]

Hi Guys,
Quick follow up: I took out the sidebites and moved the center fin back just a little and went out in a waist high day. INSTANT LOVE! I could definitely tell there was less drag as I paddled and caught (many more) waves. The looseness of the tail felt great and made a big impact on me. I suddenly felt like I was flowing with the board instead of fighting it and trying to muscle it into turns. I am definitely a convert! Turns are much easier and more natural. Now the question is- when (in my progression or depending on conditions) will I want to put those sidebites back in (if ever)? I'm still working on the noseriding part, too but not much new there. Along those lines, I noticed watching other longboarders that most guys stay back on the tail the whole ride, whereas I feel the need to move forward to the trim spot (for speed or to make a section) at some point on almost every ride. Not sure why that is?

Great stage to be at Bajo, it's about how you want to ride and you may have found part of your formula. Stick with the single for a good while, I'd suggest until it feels really natural to you maybe you'll never put them back. other longboarders may be riding the tail to get their turning like a short board ( it's something a lot of short boarders do when they go long) my opinion is if turning like a short board is the entire repertoire of a surfer, then they are missing some of the points of longboarding.
The three fin set up is more suited to these guys as the whole short board thing was originally in part to cut down the moving around the board and push for sharp turning from the one spot.

If you can generate good trim speed you will surprise the hits out of many short boarders.
Glad you're enjoying yourself and your progress .
I've had a play in Photoshop and combined two guys from the local longboard competition looking like they are doing Kung Fu

Hiiiii ya!!!!