Too much volume in a shortboard?

[Namu]

What have been your experiences surfing a shorter board with too much volume or a greater volume than is suggested for your weight? I'm 5'7" and 185lbs or 84kg.

I believe I'm making the classic mistake of surfing a groveller/small wave board with too much volume.

I have a hybrid fish is 6'6" x 21" x 2-3/4 in Tuflite with the thruster fin setup, link below:

https://www.surfshopsaustralia.com.au/s ... lying-fish

I find this board paddles okay and does well in small (knee-thigh) hollow waves. In bigger surf the board has a very narrow margin to catch waves, it doesn't get into waves as early as my 7'6" or 8'6" but actually does worse than my longer boards with late takeoffs since I cant angle the board and set my inside rail or else I will miss the wave. I can only catch the wave perpendicular, but then I get sucked up to the top of the wave and then finally rush down the face of the wave out of control, I can do the same thing with my 7'6" but that feels so much more stable and in control in those situations.

Of course paddle fitness always helps no matter what size board you are surfing, but I borrowed one of RinkyDink's short boards that was 6'4" x 19-3/8" x 2-1/2" with a squash tail and similar rocker and actually had an easier time with that board on my first day than after a dozen sessions on the fish. The 6'4" felt stable, in control, and even slower than the fish on the face. It paddles a little slower, catches waves a little later, but has a larger margin of error to catch waves under control.

On paper the fish should be easier to catch waves with and more stable for pop-ups, instead I found I could catch waves and had better stability with a lower volume standard shortboard. I have no doubt if I had my fish in 7'6" size I would be able to paddle into waves earlier and perhaps avoid getting sucked up the face and the out of control take offs, but it wouldn't surf like it was designed to for a person of my weight. Conversely, do you think that the 6'6" is a bad size for me and would have been better off with a smaller size board?

Too much volume, too little volume, or that "bad" in between volume? Bottom contour design?

I don't think I will be keeping this board and I'm thinking about a high performance longboard around 8'-9' to use on smaller waves (knee-chest) and maybe a larger standard shaped shortboard 6'4" to 6'8" for larger or hollow waves (waist-head).

Similar forum topics on grovelers, too much volume, and bad volume that I used as a point of reference are below:

viewtopic.php?t=24087

viewtopic.php?t=24680

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=26100

viewtopic.php?t=24991


Quiver:
8'6" Southpoint Longboard
7'6" CI M-13
6'6" MR Flying Fish

Age: 33
Height: 5'7"
Weight: 185lbs
Experience: 20 months surfing 6-8x per month
Surfs: Beach breaks with sandbars and sometimes rocky beach breaks.

[oldmansurfer]

Is there not much rocker in your fish? Is the board thick in the tail? I think there is something with short rockerless boards in that if you aren't positioned exactly right they are hard to paddle and thicker tail boards make it harder to set the rail. I think every little bit too far back on the board increases the difficulty by a bit.

[icetime]

Is there not much rocker in your fish? Is the board thick in the tail? I think there is something with short rockerless boards in that if you aren't positioned exactly right they are hard to paddle and thicker tail boards make it harder to set the rail. I think every little bit too far back on the board increases the difficulty by a bit.

You have a point, I didn't think of the rocker when he was talking about it in another thread.
I still think he's to blame and not the board, afterall, some pro surfers can surf a door, I don't really think that you can ever have too much volume, the more volume in most cases the easier to paddle/catch waves

[drowningbitbybit]

I believe I'm making the classic mistake of surfing a groveller/small wave board with too much volume.

I have a hybrid fish is 6'6" x 21" x 2-3/4 in Tuflite with the thruster fin setup, link below:

I used to have an almost identical board and I do know where you're coming from.

In smaller stuff, absolutely superb board, but would get a bit sketchy in steeper stuff.
Yes, you might be right that there is an awkward middle ground between proper shortboard and proper high-volume board.
In particular, the volume means the board gets picked up by the wave (rather than the surfer catching it) but then doesn't have the rocker or the rails to get into the right spot on the wave, hence you slide all the way down the front, stall, then get picked up by the wave again.

(I don't mean to say that this is all the board's fault - just what happens with an average surfer on it)

A bigger board means you catch the wave (rather than vice versa) while a smaller board can just go straight off the peak and onto the face. Weak paddle power, lack of commitment, going in too late are all going to make this worse, but the board isn't helping.

Also, remember that a fishy board is designed to be quite loose for sliding around on fat gutless sections, not for riding high on a barrelling wave. That's why they're a) great on small waves and b) so much fun.

In the end, it's not that the board has too much volume, but that you're surfing the wrong waves (too steep/sucky) with it.
As wave height/power/steepness increases from small to large, shortboard volume tends to go high to low and then back to high again (so you can get in early enough on big waves).

If your paddle power isn't enough, then a smaller volume board won't help, but a more beach-break oriented one might

[drowningbitbybit]

I don't really think that you can ever have too much volume

Of course you can. Try surfing a reef or a jacking beach break on a 3" thick groveller with a wide tail and see how far in front of the wave you get pitched before it lands on you.

[icetime]

I don't really think that you can ever have too much volume

Of course you can. Try surfing a reef or a jacking beach break on a 3" thick groveller with a wide tail and see how far in front of the wave you get pitched before it lands on you.

I actually did surf a reef break with my board with no problem, it's quite like his and has loads of volume, I catch the wave early before it hits the reef and it jacks up behind me while I'm already on the wave

[drowningbitbybit]

it jacks up behind me while I'm already on the wave

If it jacks up behind you then that's not the kind of wave I'm talking about. A solid reefbreak – and even some beachbreaks – isn't catchable until it jacks up because there simply isn't a wave there to catch. You have to catch the wave off the throwing peak.
On a wave like that, volume becomes more of a liability than a help. For a steep and jacking wave, I'd far rather be on a board with less volume, and – just as important – more rocker, less tail width and less chunky rails than a fish.

Ultimately it's going to come down to the combination of board/surfer/wave, but for me (and indeed most shortboarders) I find that it's very easy to be over-volumed.

[Namu]

Thanks for the advice, I will take some pics of the board when I get home and post them. Cleary the combination of surfer + surfboard + wave are not working together. If I lost weight or had more paddle power / fitness I could get into wave a little earlier before the wave jacks up. If the board had less volume, more rocker, narrower tail, and thinner rails, it would be better suited for a beach break that requires a late/steep take off. The closest accessible point break is about a 70 mile drive so that will rarely happen.

Does it make sense to pursue both a longboard for early entry on small or mushy days and a proper beach break shortboard for late take-offs on hollow and larger days?

Icetime, how much do you weigh?

[oldmansurfer]

it jacks up behind me while I'm already on the wave

If it jacks up behind you then that's not the kind of wave I'm talking about. A solid reefbreak – and even some beachbreaks – isn't catchable until it jacks up because there simply isn't a wave there to catch. You have to catch the wave off the throwing peak.
On a wave like that, volume becomes more of a liability than a help. For a steep and jacking wave, I'd far rather be on a board with less volume, and – just as important – more rocker, less tail width and less chunky rails than a fish.

Ultimately it's going to come down to the combination of board/surfer/wave, but for me (and indeed most shortboarders) I find that it's very easy to be over-volumed.

I still love my high volume boards for those conditions

[waikikikichan]

Please, please, let's not follow the Pied Piper down that road again. It took surfers/shapers decades to get over that design concept.

If the board had less volume, more rocker, narrower tail, and thinner rails, it would be better suited for a beach break that requires a late/steep take off ?

That exactly describes the type of board Kelly Slater was riding in the 90's. Potato chip Rocker ships.

shaneherring_tom+servais_seasicksurf.jpg (130.61 KiB) Viewed 5473 times

[waikikikichan]

On paper the fish should be easier to catch waves with and more stable for pop-ups, instead I found I could catch waves and had better stability with a lower volume standard shortboard. I have no doubt if I had my fish in 7'6" size I would be able to paddle into waves earlier and perhaps avoid getting sucked up the face and the out of control take offs, but it wouldn't surf like it was designed to for a person of my weight. Conversely, do you think that the 6'6" is a bad size for me and would have been better off with a smaller size board?

Too much volume, too little volume, or that "bad" in between volume? Bottom contour design?

That's why Volume Calculators hurt beginners. What if you had two guys that weighed 150lbs. One guy is 6'4" and the other guy 4'0". but they both are same on a scale. That is what VOLUME shows you. Just one dimension. What you don't see is the RAIL LINE.

Another thing is all the talk about Groveler, Eggs, Simons, Fishes, double-wing swallow tail hybrids, performance mini-mal, alternative boards words. "Well, you need this in this wave, and this in this type of wave". Forget about "You need a longboard to noseride, You need a groveler for fat waves, you need a shortboard to turn". Learn the wave and learn how to surf, THEN you can ride ANY board.

Watch this video, it'll open your mind to what can / can't be done. Start from :42 ( bear with me, it's a cycling video, but trust me it's awesome to watch for even non-cyclist )

[Big H]

Check this out.....thought provoking discussion on the subject.....

http://www.swaylocks.com/forums/board-r ... eper-waves

[RinkyDink]

I'm too inexperienced to really be able to offer any insight. However, I think one of the posts from Big H's link to a Swaylocks thread is interesting. One writer there wrote:

"If most of the foam in the board is in the front half ( wider nose than tail, forward widepoint ), i find the front half "floats up, as the wave stands up and you can definately get caught in the lip, and it makes it hard to get into them. Not impossible, but does make it hard. If there's more width and float behind centre, the back of the board lifts, and the nose goes down, helping on later steeper takeoffs. My backyard hack opinion. I have a 7'6'' shortboard, 3'' thick. Paddles great, but in steeper waves, the nose points down easily ( i think because the back end lifts up ), so it handles steeper waves much much better than my mal or fish." http://www.swaylocks.com/forums/board-r ... eper-waves

I think instead of considering volume from a too much/too little perspective, you might want to think about it in terms of volume distribution (volume forward of the board's center or volume behind the board's center). You might also want to throw in the weight of your body and where you're standing during takeoff. Are you popping up on the ledge at the top of the wall or are you popping up before you're sucked up to the ledge like in a no-hands type takeoff. You should try getting your hands on some boards with forward and backward volume to do some comparisons. Swing by Joe's and talk to him about it. He'll let you borrow a board for a weekend if you think it might work for you. Anyway, I haven't surfed since the move, but I'm hoping to get out this weekend. Hopefully, there will be some waves.

[dtc]

Of course you can. Try surfing a reef or a jacking beach break on a 3" thick groveller with a wide tail and see how far in front of the wave you get pitched before it lands on you.

Man, the Mccoy Nugget crew are going to be after you for that comment....actually, it proves your point. The nugget does have a wide tail but it has quite a bit of nose rocker, unlike the grovellors. Anything longish with a flat nose rocker will struggle a bit in steeper waves unless you can get in early. Try a longboard on a low tide beach break that hits the sand bar from deep water

I dont think Namu's board, at 41L and 6'6, has 'too much' volume per se - its probably toward the higher end but its the rest of the board that is the main issue in conjunction with the volume (rocker, tail, etc etc). Basically what DBB said

[icetime]

Thanks for the advice, I will take some pics of the board when I get home and post them. Cleary the combination of surfer + surfboard + wave are not working together. If I lost weight or had more paddle power / fitness I could get into wave a little earlier before the wave jacks up. If the board had less volume, more rocker, narrower tail, and thinner rails, it would be better suited for a beach break that requires a late/steep take off. The closest accessible point break is about a 70 mile drive so that will rarely happen.

Does it make sense to pursue both a longboard for early entry on small or mushy days and a proper beach break shortboard for late take-offs on hollow and larger days?

Icetime, how much do you weigh?

I weigh 105 lb

[Namu]

Thank you for the replies.

Icetime, no wonder you can get into waves so early I weight almost twice as much as you!

W-Chan, I will try to focus on improving my skills and technique, the boards I have are fine for my waves, I just need to learn to take advantage of their strengths and manage the weaknesses.

Sometimes I can get into waves in that narrow margin before the waves get too steep and I don't have any issues, but more often than not in order to catch the wave it has to be somewhat critical.

Typically when I catch a steep wave I get sucked up to the ledge rather than get that push forwards on my longer boards. When I'm on top of the ledge I either stall the board off the back of the wave or I manage to lean forward enough to get the board tipped downhill flying down the face of the wave out of control. On my bigger boards I just pop-up when I feel that push forward and feel the board start to plane. If I wait for my fish to plane I'm already sliding down the face of the wave into the flats still on my belly. Sometimes on my fish I try to get to my feet as soon as I feel the tail rise, before the board starts to plane, that is when it is a 50/50 stall over the back of the wave or the out of control feeling of rushing down the face into the flats before I can set my inside rail or manage a bottom turn.

After reading your comments and the thread on Swaylocks, would it make sense for me shift my weight forward to compensate for the added volume in the front of the board? I paddle this board with nose 1-2" out of the water like my longer boards, but maybe I need to re-balance my weight over the center of gravity or center of volume of the board, rather than the mid-point of the length of the board. Would paddling my board nose even with or just below the surface of the water help? Would staying crouched low and weight over the front foot on the pop-up keep the board from getting sucked up the face?

The board came with FCS PC-5 Fins (smaller), which I replaced with FCS G-AM fins (larger) I had from another board. Does that make a difference better or worse?

Pics below of rocker and rails:

[dtc]

Typically when I catch a steep wave I get sucked up to the ledge rather than get that push forwards on my longer boards. When I'm on top of the ledge I either stall the board off the back of the wave or I manage to lean forward enough to get the board tipped downhill flying down the face of the wave out of control.

.....

Pics below of rocker and rails:

Do a google search on 'breaking the ledge' - its hard to explain but its what doesn't happen when you are being sucked up the wave.

Take an extra stroke or two. Check out your positioning. I fall into the habit of just assuming all my boards will take off roughly the same, but of course they don't. I sometimes need to tell myself to think about where this board needs to be positioned relative to the wave and when I need to start paddling with this board and where I need to be positioned on the board etc. This is particularly the case when I drop down size - I sit too far out and miss the wave a few times until my IQ catches up with my board.

That board has a fair bit of rocker. But it shouldn't make much difference to your pop up, other than perhaps slowing you down a little bit.

Fins are unlikely to be relevant at this point, they become relevant once you are up and standing (there is some influence but pretty minor)

[Big H]

Also, the same board needs to be handled differently per the conditions at the moment....Wchan discourages using markers or balled up wax as a board line up when laying down since depending on the conditions, if you're going to catch a wave early or late, steepness of the section/peak you're taking off on, you may need to adjust forward or back, raise your head high while going for the wave or put your nose to the deck....it depends, it's different, there is no rule except that there is no rule....you need to sort the questions you have listed with trial and error in the water and taking note of what happens, cause and effects.....try catching waves gradually moving closer to the nose with your positioning with each wave and take note....do the same while positioning gradually further away....on take off try staying low over the front foot, try extending your front leg and weighting the back foot...try going straight to the bottom and bottom turning, try to immediately turn and stay high right out of your get up....just get out there and surf!

[jaffa1949]

A simple statement might help, pop forward up not backward up,.
WTF , explanation, in the pop up move you feet forward and stand up under your hand moving forward. Down ward pressure of the pop up forces the board down engaging the face cleanly. Do not have a death grip on the rails lead with your forehand foot you can as you get skilled enhance with inside rail pressure ( clear judgement needed)
DO NOT do the the stand up back pulling your body back up and over your feet backwards ( thereby guaranteeing a major stall and float over the back of the wave or get lip launched!
Paddle two or three extra strokes to paddle down the wave face, the pop up becomes easier as the board in being driven down the wave face, more speed = more stability to push up . One smooth movement nails it.
Hesitate fails it!

[icetime]

A simple statement might help, pop forward up not backward up,.
WTF , explanation, in the pop up move you feet forward and stand up under your hand moving forward. Down ward pressure of the pop up forces the board down engaging the face cleanly. Do not have a death grip on the rails lead with your forehand foot you can as you get skilled enhance with inside rail pressure ( clear judgement needed)
DO NOT do the the stand up back pulling your body back up and over your feet backwards ( thereby guaranteeing a major stall and float over the back of the wave or get lip launched!
Paddle two or three extra strokes to paddle down the wave face, the pop up becomes easier as the board in being driven down the wave face, more speed = more stability to push up . One smooth movement nails it.
Hesitate fails it!

Bit curious, I have a wide deck so rail grabbing isn't possible to stand up, does rail grabbing have any important uses when I get a shorter/thinner board?
I see some pro surfers ride backside barrels and stuff while holding their outer rail, realistically in normal surf, does it have any use?