Increasing small wave count

[benjl]

Hey guys

I've had a bit of a query on this for awhile but would be great to get your feedback on.

When it comes to performance boards, standard short boards and long boards, I get it and their design elements make sense. Especially around volume, length etc.
When it comes to smaller wave boards, I'm a bit confused.

Through my own learning, i've always found that increased volume, length and flatter rocker aids in wave catching.
I had always used a bigger board with more volume for smaller days because it picked up everything and kept going with the wave when the standard shortboard would stop. My 7'2 is a prime example of that. If it wasn't such a hassle to transport and duck-dive for my weight on the consistent;y big and messy waves that I have, i'd use it more often.

However everyone seems to be going shorter and shorter in length and lower and lower in volume, even for small days?
For exmaple, my go-to volume in a shortboard is around 30l in epoxy. For a small day, I would assume i'd need flatter rocker and at least 34L to make it all work.

Yet there's all these 'small wave' specific boards coming out that are suggesting for my weight and target volume, I should be riding about a 5'6 on 28-30l volume. A decrease in length but no increase in volume?
Is the theory that because its so much shorter, you can forgo some volume by being able to manouever it so much around the pocket that it generates speed and so you don't need the extra volume of a bigger board?

For instance, I was just saw a firewire potatonater that was 5'6. I thought no way, that's way too small and only 30l. However the website thinks that this is the correct length for me for a small wave board, if anything, I should go even shorter and lower volume.
My natural insticnt would've been telling me to go for the 5'8 or 5'10 with 34-37l.

Has anyone else tried these really short, relatively low volume boards on small waves and provide insight in to this for me?

Thanks guys

[oldmansurfer]

I am so not into riding low volume boards at this point in my life but one thing I do (think I ) know and that is the distribution of the volume is extremely important in wave catching ability. I think the majority of the volume needs to be under your center of gravity as you paddle. Now this is just an idea of my own and not something I read or that I heard anyone else say so I could be wrong. I love my current 8 foot fungun for it's wave catching ability

[Big H]

I had one of these in my hands this morning....I will go for the 5'8" as my short boards now are all around 37l. Maybe get custom at 5'10" and 40l. More foam more fun.

http://www.studersurfboards.com/surfboa ... ie-hobbit/

[dtc]

Everything old is new again...these boards are modern versions of boards from the late 80's before Kelly caused everyone to ride thin, rockered and highly concaved boards. So we are just going back to what should be (for us average folk) rather than what Kelly can ride. But a bit shorter than the old days.

A lot of them have fat tails, which helps catch the wave (and, as an aside, if you are struggling get a fat tailed board, so much easier!). Once up, then you just need enough volume to support you and something that goes fast enough not to sink. So these are flat rockered, bottom concaves designed for speed (basically flat), often quads. Thick in the core so it sits higher in the water. Everything is about speed and minimising friction

The volume in, say, a 5'8 will be pretty similar to the volume in a standard 6'2 or 6'3 shortboard. I understand the general concept is that you get your grovellor board with slightly more volume than your normal board. However, this assumes you are surfing a standard short board, with a bit of nose rocker and so forth. If you are currently surfing a more fish style board, then you may need an extra few Ls

As always, ignore the on line calculators. or look at this one, which has grovelers about 5l more than normal http://www.comparesurfboards.com/learn/ ... more-waves

Btw, talking to people who have these boards (I don't so just 2nd hand info), you still need a bit of punch in the waves. High tide rolling waves are not where they work; but on the other hand really steep waves and they are very hard to take off on. Lowish to mid tide beach waves are where its at. But that probably depends a bit on the board - a mini sim will surf different to a potatonator, for examaple

They aren't the easiest boards to surf either. DBB has one, I think, so may chime in. As you can imagine, perched on a small floaty bit of board means every twitch causes board movement, every loss of balance and its gone. Not much contingency. Also, they aren't as easy to duck dive because you are having to push a lot of concentrated foam under the wave (whereas in a longer board its spread out and you only need to get the nose under, really, the rest will follow).

[oldenglish]

Old man is right, the distribution is the important part. Some grovel boards are meant to be ridden in similar volumes to the riders hpsb. The volume however might place more foam beneath the chest and the outline and concave would be totally different. Also these boards are usually the opposite of what you think small wave boards are like. They often have a lot more rocker than expected and instead of being fairly straight outlined they have lots of curve. This aids in turning the board, being able to get it on rail, which keeps speed up if you keep the board moving. If the wave is too slopey to work for speed these boards don't work too well. I like to ride mine in knee to waist high waves that have good form to them.

Dtc is right, these boards aren't the easiest to ride. They actually usually don't excel at catching waves, if your foot placement is off on take off your gonna slide out or sink, all your speed is generated rail to rail not by pushing on your front foot and gliding. In bigger waves they slide out a lot, they are thicker in the tail so it's difficult to sink the rail for turns in bigger faster waves, they don't sink in the face when taking off making the take off very fast some times even in mushy waves.

[drowningbitbybit]

DBB has one, I think, so may chime in.

Yup

I'm 6' and 85kg, and my standard shortboard is 6'2, but I've got a 5'10 grovel board with a massive 38L or so. Very wide along the whole length, particularly in the tail, and very little rocker (but definitely some. Not almost flat like a fish).

So why this board? A lot of the time I surf small beach breaks where the wave almost flops over, and I find a longer board hard to tuck into the face, and I'm not really into just cruising down the line. The short length gives a good deal of maneouvreability, but the wide tail (which helps with catching waves and keeping going with the weak sections) makes carves tricky, so you have to work the board, and foot positioning is everything.

On larger waves, the low rocker isn't great, but the width of the board is the real difficulty - on a steep wall, while one rail is in the wave, there's a huge amount of board hanging out in the air, and again, foot positioning is everything.

My groveller is a quad, but I think I'd actually prefer it as a thruster so that I could pivot around that centre fin for a bit more carve, which I'll keep in mind for next time.

And, yeah, you're right - the volume calculators for these boards do tend to show too low. Fine for low-weight or very experienced surfers, but for joe average, your instinct of upping it to about 37l sounds about right

[Surf Hound]

Just bought this for a small wave board - mine is 6-2 so not all that small but I am a big guy. Have not used it yet as the waves were firing over the weekend. Hopefully, when the swell leaves I will be having fun on this thing.....
Shaper does not put all the dimensions other than 6-2. It compares in volume to a Average Joe that I have. I am really curious to how it surfs in the small stuff. I never buy into the wave catching machine crap, at 45 soon to be 46 nothing catches waves as well as my youth. lol

[benjl]

Thanks for the responses guys. I tried out that volume calculator and it said that for my 65kg weight, 30l is my ideal grovel board volume.
That would make the Firewire 5'6 potatonator bang on for me at 30l (considering it is epoxy it's probably more like 32l).

Despite the volume, is the consensus that these boards are 'not easy' to catch waves on?

The shortest board i've ever tried was 5'10 and on that I did notice what you guys were saying about feet placement and how the smallest movements are magnified. Saying that though, it was only 18.5 wide and 2 1/4 thick with a lot of rocker whereas the potatonator is 20 1/4 wide with flatter rocker and 4l more volume.

In comparison, the 5'6 hypto krypto has .5l less volume (slightly narrower) and that's supposed to be rated 1-8ft. I've never tried paddling one of those either but people think they're supposed to paddle and 'catch waves' quite well?

I'm really tied between giving one a go (and finding it too short, skatey, not grovelly enough on small days) or just getting a bigger hybrid like 6'4 (not as versatile or easy to turn + more of a mission to fit in the car).

[oldenglish]

Depends on how small you want to surf. Potatonator is a dominator and baked potato mix. If you want a super low end I'd say skip it and go straight to a baked potato or something like that. If you want something for waist high to chest with good form but kinda weak I would get a Dom or try the hk. These boards have to be worked though none of them surf themselves.

[drowningbitbybit]

Despite the volume, is the consensus that these boards are 'not easy' to catch waves on?

I don't think that a grovel board makes it hard to catch waves at all, but I'm talking about small waves rather than fat or weak waves. A groveller on a small but perfectly formed wave is a whole lot of fun and easy to get into - that's what they're made for

They also work on bigger but crumblier waves, so I guess it all depends on what waves you're surfing.

[drowningbitbybit]

for my 65kg weight, 30l is my ideal grovel board volume.

I'd say that 30l is likely to be too low unless you're surfing small waves with some punch (rare but does happen). The point of a groveller is to give you a board that you can go out on days that look pretty marginal, so you don't need to worry too much about 'performance' as you'll not be on high class waves.

It's all about wave count and making the most of it, so don't under-grovel

[Big H]

3-5ft today....going grovelling on my 6'4"x 21 11/16" x 3" CI biscuit copy....hearty 47L for my 85kg's.

[dtc]

Buy something second hand, sell it if it isn't for you. It's the only way to find out. Most of the time you can sell for about what you paid, more or less, plus a bit of time dealing with buyers. You will never know until you surf it which is he right board

[benjl]

Yeah that's a good point about the wave shape. I guess at my local beaches there's never really a shortage of wave power but often it's very messy and punchy.

I guess I'm looking for something that I can take out in 1-3ft ish when it's close out but still catch plenty of waves on and paddle easily. Basically to up my wave and stoke factor as much as possible. If it's really small and clean I might just take my 7'2 torq.
How do you guys find these little compact boards to paddle? As good as they say they are? Do they 'catch' waves fairly easily with the right paddle?

I've read a few reviews online that say they can be hard to get on to waves with but usually fine once up and running.

[Big H]

For what it's worth, anyone that I've seen riding really small boards is awesome....they don't worry about the paddle because they take off just under the lip....and GONE, pumping down the line....they work the heck out of those boards....

Used boards is the way to go....I have tried a lot of different shapes and sizes...as I improve I continue and keep looking for good fits....sometimes what looks good on paper or comes highly recommended isn't for you and vice versa....

[Big H]

Buy something second hand, sell it if it isn't for you. It's the only way to find out. Most of the time you can sell for about what you paid, more or less, plus a bit of time dealing with buyers. You will never know until you surf it which is he right board

Case in point: I just sold the second hand 47l board....wasnt for me and just got one that still has a lot of volume but less than the other one...second hand again....tried it today and like it so I stumbled into a good one...

[drowningbitbybit]

I like that the tail pad looks like a target... "Put your foot HERE!!!!"

Oh, boards looks nice too

[Big H]

Oh yeah....the best part....it didn't "cost" anything since I bought the "new" board for exactly what I sold the old board for.

[benjl]

Speaking of trying out small wave boards..

I was out with some mates in the weekend in tiny 1-2ft close out surf. My mate had his 'super brand slug' surfboard which was a 5'8x19.5x2.5 pu board with no rocker and wide nose.
I took it for a spin and surprisingly it was a blast! Had no trouble picking up the waves and was so responsive with your foot planted directly over the back fins. I had a blast on it and was really surprised as I doubt it was over 30l and i thought that would've been too small for me.

It was only on the bigger 2ft waves that it seemed to struggle catching them and that you'd really need to be right on the peak to get them.
I went back to my 7'2 afterwards and immediately noticed the difference with the bigger waves just pushing the 7'2 along.

Is that what other people have noticed with the small boards? After the experiement, I would love to get one but I did feel like I would get more waves with the 7'2

[Big H]

You struggled to get the bigger waves? I would think the other way around.