from a shortboard to a longboard

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Postby Roy Stewart » Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:13 pm

All mals are noseriding types, and that includes 'performance' models. . . they are all designed for noseriding to some degree.. . . so the board ridden is undoubtedly one of those. . . plus the way it behaved is typical of one of the classic malibu wipeout syndromes (there are several)

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Postby Otter » Tue Aug 28, 2007 10:36 pm

RoyStewart wrote:In other words the guy with the VW can still get chicks but he has to try harder ?

:shock:


Not necessarilly, there are probably chicks that dig guys in VW's. There are probably guys driving VW's that could beat the tar out of some guy's in a Porsche. With driving as with surfing, I think alot has to do with the driver/rider.
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Postby isaluteyou » Tue Aug 28, 2007 10:44 pm

agree with otter here.

I think however we have kinda lost what the original thread was about. So in answer to the original poster.

If you try to surf a longboard like a shortboard you are going to eat it a lot which i found out myself. Longboards do not respond in the same way at all so naturally it will take a few sessions to get used to how the board works.
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Postby Roy Stewart » Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:00 pm

Otter wrote:
RoyStewart wrote:In other words the guy with the VW can still get chicks but he has to try harder ?

:shock:


Not necessarilly, there are probably chicks that dig guys in VW's. There are probably guys driving VW's that could beat the tar out of some guy's in a Porsche. With driving as with surfing, I think alot has to do with the driver/rider.


Mate it was your quote on the other thread about guys in Porsches pulling more chicks than guys in VW's. . . . you were the author not me . . . I was merely quoting your post tongue in cheek.

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Postby Roy Stewart » Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:05 pm

isaluteyou wrote:agree with otter here.

I think however we have kinda lost what the original thread was about. So in answer to the original poster.

If you try to surf a longboard like a shortboard you are going to eat it a lot which i found out myself. Longboards do not respond in the same way at all so naturally it will take a few sessions to get used to how the board works.


The point is that the badly designed longboards (which are probably 99.999 percent of them) available don't react like shortboards, but well designed ones behave very much like shortboards. . . . the reason why people think that longboards do not respond like shortboards is because they have only ridden what's commonly available. . . .

Noseriders are a design anachronism.


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Postby Otter » Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:18 pm

Roy, I know you like to show other people contradicting themselves, but I hold to my position. Some guys in Porsches will do better than most guys in VW's. But there's always the chance that the guy in the VW will get the gal. No inconsistencies I don't believe. On a board, in a car, in the sack, the surfer/driver/partner (to me) is the most heavilly weighted factor.

As far as your position in that longboards are inherently poorly designed, possibly so. Basically it is a tree trunk, somewhat shaped to be more hydrodynamically efficient to some extent. You can't change a longboard into a shortboard, they were both designed for different types of riding. I'm not particularly into nose riding, I think that the folks who go around bragging about hanging 5 aren't particularly talented. The nature of the longboard makes hanging 5 fairly elemental. Do 10 and survive, that's a different story. I prefer and I surf with the objective of getting inside the tube. Most times there aren't any tubes to get into, so I do my best to have a good time. End of my story.
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Postby Roy Stewart » Wed Aug 29, 2007 1:07 am

Otter you have completely misunderstood what I am saying.

I am not saying that because a board is long that it's length prevents it from being well designed, I am saying that the current design fashion for longboarding is for noseriding longboards and that THEY are fundamentaly flawed, but NOT because of their length.

Also, it isn't the case that because a board is long it is therefore a noserider . . .. I have longboards which don't noseride at all andt they ride waves much more efficiently than noseriding malibus do.

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Postby isaluteyou » Wed Aug 29, 2007 1:11 am

so I do my best to have a good time


Yep right on.

And anyway if you really come down to it NO board off the rack is 100% perfect for you the only way to have that is by having a hell of a lot of wave expereince enough to know exactly what you need and a very good shaper. Everyone is different no one board suits them all. You could come up with a revolutionary board design and some people will hate it e.g i know a lot of people who swear by their fish boards but personally i cant stand them :wink:

Whatever gives me my stoke is what i will use. :wink:
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Postby Otter » Wed Aug 29, 2007 1:43 am

RoyStewart wrote:Otter you have completely misunderstood what I am saying.

I am not saying that because a board is long that it's length prevents it from being well designed, I am saying that the current design fashion for longboarding is for noseriding longboards and that THEY are fundamentaly flawed, but NOT because of their length.

Also, it isn't the case that because a board is long it is therefore a noserider . . .. I have longboards which don't noseride at all andt they ride waves much more efficiently than noseriding malibus do.

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I guess I misinterpreted something that was written on this thread. I don't think we are truly disagreeing at all. I think we both have the experience and skill to know what we are talking about. I've read alot of your posts and I do respect your knowledge and wisdom. For sure, most longboards now are designed for noseriding, which for today's market is probably fairly appropriate. I prefer the traditional use of the longboard as I interpret it to be... FUN!!!!

Hope to see you in the lineup someday!

I salute you! :D
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Postby Roy Stewart » Wed Aug 29, 2007 1:56 am

Cheers Otter :D

It's 'one of those days' over here, gotta go nice talking to you
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Postby rich r » Wed Aug 29, 2007 2:15 pm

Roy, I still don't agree with you that 99.99% of all longboards are designed poorly.

For someone who insists on exacting accuracy from everyone else, your hyperbole is totally out of whack.

The one problem I've had with many people on this board speaking of longboards is this insistence on calling a longboard a "Mal."

A "Mal" is short for "Malibu". A Malibu is a particular style/design of longboard. While they may have some slight variations, the core of a Malibu style surfboard remains the same. In this case, I would agree that they are sluggish fat beasts, regardless of whatever you try to do to the rails or concave or fins.

If you start messing with the tail, rocker, thickness, width, etc.. well, it's no longer a Malibu, people.

So, for the single classic board design of Mals - sure they're poorly designed. However, I wouldn't say that 99.99% of longboards are Mals, or that anywhere near close to 99.99% of longboards are poorly designed.

Remember your transitive properties and Venn diagrams. A Mal may always be a longboard, but a longboard isn't always a Mal.

And back to the original post.. isaluteyou - my point, as well. I agree that the reason he's pitching is trying to ride the longboard like a shortboard, regardless if it is a performance longboard or not, it's a different kind of finesse.
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Postby Roy Stewart » Wed Aug 29, 2007 8:02 pm

The reason why I'm saying that 99.999% of longboards are poor designs is not because they are designated as 'mals' but because they are designed to be noseridden, and the noseriding requirement wrecks them as functional surfboiards. . . the reasons why are very simple.

A well designed longboard can be surfed successfully by complete beginners with their eyes shut. . . . not so with the noseriding type

The cure is very simple, but not many people have experienced it, gthat's why they don't understand it. . . .

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Postby rich r » Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:13 pm

Umm.. have you looked at the boards in the back of any surf magazine lately? Longboarder may be a good one for you to start with. Let me know what issue you pick so I can compare results.

Or, walk through a couple surf shops in New Jersey or California (which, admittedly, would be the only shops that I can give any authoritative experience in being in lately).
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Postby surfsc77 » Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:18 pm

get roy, do you surf st. augustine? i saw you on the SS message board, i just moved down here myself.
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Postby Driftingalong » Thu Sep 06, 2007 7:40 pm

To answer the original post:
Don't lean so much. Make sure your back foot is over the fin and try to pivot the board more. This will help get you started.


Don't feed the Troll....

Roy = Troll
(You are not some sort of surfing messiah here to save us from our longboarding hell. We already know your "opinion" and you should already know that we don't really care or really agree.)
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Postby Roy Stewart » Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:05 pm

Really Driftngalong, you can't argue with the facts. . . hydrodynamic OR historical. . . and that's all I am doing, presenting the facts.

Now if you want to ride awkward dysfunctional designs just because it is decreed to be compulsory by America then so be it, but don't expect everyone else to go along with it.

The difference is that I am a surfbboard designer and builder speaking from experience, whereas you and your ilk are just obedient parrots

Get a real longboard, not a foam icecream stick designed by a committee of dunces (which is what you have now)

As for the turning issue, it's just a simple matter of introducing more planshape curve from the widepoint back, and allowing a decelerating rocker (like a shortboard)

:arrow:


As for calling me a troll, don't be silly. . . . I post under my own name, and make logical and pertinent contributions based on sound theory and practical experience . . . back when I started there were surfers who were individuals . . . now we have mass produced boards and mass produced surfers to go with them

:roll:
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Postby Roy Stewart » Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:13 pm

surfsc77 wrote:get roy, do you surf st. augustine? i saw you on the SS message board, i just moved down here myself.


I'm in New Zealand, but visit the SS message board occasionally, they are a cheerful bunch compared with the stuffy Californians IMO


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Postby grub » Fri Sep 07, 2007 12:31 pm

RoyStewart wrote:The reason why I'm saying that 99.999% of longboards are poor designs is not because they are designated as 'mals' but because they are designed to be noseridden, and the noseriding requirement wrecks them as functional surfboiards. . . the reasons why are very simple.

:roll: Roy this all comes back to the desired "function" they were designed to fulfill... Your perspective on lets say "function" is at the very least different then 99.999% of other shapers out there.

One could term "Nose ridding" as a desired function of a board and therefore set things in place to to fulfill it. Personally nose ridding is one aspect I for one enjoy; I also beleave that the majority of longboards (tradional and progressive, as opposed to yours) are well designed to meet this requirement. Don´t focus so much on the actual design but more on the publics miss conception on what a longboard is.
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Postby Roy Stewart » Fri Sep 07, 2007 8:15 pm

Grub old sport, surfboards are for riding waves, and boards which reduce the ability to ride waves due to uneccessary style considerations like noseriding, are poorer surfboards . .. . .. . the fact that 99.999% of shapers make them that way makes no difference.

If 99.999% of car manufacturers made cars with hexagonal wheels just to follow a spurious tradition, would you ignore the fact that round wheels work better and claim that the desired function of the car is not as a vehicle but rather to provide enjoyable bumps ?

The surf industry doesn't care if they sell you badly designed boards because they are able to convince you that you want them that way, their function is to make money seling stuff, not to help you to surf better, and as long as you keep drinking the koolaid they are going to keep making it.

The track record of the surf industry is appalling. . . . they basically outlawed longboards throughout the seventies and well into the eighties, due to the new marketing ploy known as the 'shortboard revolution'. . . this meant that those of us who grew up at beaches suitable for longboarding were unable to ride the vast majority of waves which came through, a very frustrating experience for many, and one which proves that the industry does not put the true function of surfboards ( i.e RIDING WAVES!) first when dsigning and marketing them.

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Postby grub » Fri Sep 07, 2007 9:09 pm

Well Roy I can't say that I disagree with you with regards to the "surf industry" :lol: . But back on function and the coment below:

RoyStewart wrote:If 99.999% of car manufacturers made cars with hexagonal wheels just to follow a spurious tradition, would you ignore the fact that round wheels work better and claim that the desired function of the car is not as a vehicle but rather to provide enjoyable bumps ?

If the function of the cars in question was to say travel over sand or lets say transport milk shakes, hexagonal wheels may just fullfil the desired function beter.

RoyStewart wrote:...surfboards are for riding waves, and boards which reduce the ability to ride waves due to uneccessary style considerations like noseriding, are poorer surfboards...

Left out one thing: ENJOYMENT. If you are not enjoying yourself why surf? I do not find anything wrong with flow of movement (I beleave you are refering to this as "style") and surfboards that provide this are not necessarally "poorer surfboards" but merely surfboards with an alternative functional aspect of their design than say that of a "Power Surfboard". Your focus tends to be along the lines of speed or ability to function as a section conector :P . If speed and necessity for a section conector is of little to no consern to my application why would I make them a focus of a design or be it a desired surfboard?
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