Looking for more Q&A on the "fish"

[Bub]

I'm contemplating buying a fish style board (like alot of folks on the board) but am still in info. gathering mode. I'm confused on a few things I've read and was hoping some of you could help clarify for me.
1) From what I've read, the stereotypical fish (realizing there can be alot of differences though based on the crafter/designer) is designed wider and thicker than shortboard/thruster, thus providing for greater stability (board width) and ease in paddling (thickness provides more bouyance/easier paddling. Why are some folks saying that the fish is difficult to paddle out through the waves but then I'm also hearing (and witnessed 1st hand) that they are very easy to catch waves coming in? Those statements seem to conflict each other.
I was watching 2 guys riding fish boards a few weeks back, and it was so easy for them to catch waves...literally 2 paddle strokes and they were up...midsize boarders seemed to have to paddle much, much longer and harder to catch waves. Just an observation.

2) I would probably only plan to stick with small waves in my surfing future (under 5 feet mostly 3-4 footers, primarly small summer slop as the majority of my surfing future). From what I've read from most of you guys/gals out here, the fish is ideal for those conditions. What surf conditions is the fish board not very well suited for (aside from totally flat conditions when no-one will bother)?
3) Is it easier to transition from a mini-mal/funboard to a shortboard or a fish to a shortboard?

4) If a novice surfer is committed to buying a fish over the larger/more recommended boards to learn on, would buying a larger fat-boy fish be easier to ride and learn on that a smaller fish? (even if you are sized more appropriately to ride a smaller fish...I'm 5'9'' and 140 lbs).

Not that anyone cares, but here was my thoughts on why I'm contemplating a fish over the more recommended/larger boards:

- primary factor is small size and ease of transporting it. Anything under 6'10'' can fit into my vehicle with passengers without requiring purchase of a roof rack, board bags for protection etc.

- cheaper than longer boards of comparable quailty/manufacturers (generally speaking)

- from the 3 boards I've ridden so far, I like the feel and control of the smallest board I've ridden on thus far (7'4'' as opposed to an 8 footer and an 8'4'' I've previously ridden), and think I'm going to enjoy shortboarding more than long boarding

- from what I've read, the fish works in the conditions that I'll primarily be surfing (small summer waves)

- more stabile than a short board thus easier to develop on (if those were my 2 choices/options).

- if (a big if, way in future) I ever get more advanced at surfing...aerials, tricks etc interest me more than long rides/toe-on-the nose stuff. I guess my past life as a skateboarder is the reasoning there...I guess thats just how I'm "hard-wired".

[surfsc77]

wow thats quite a bit of contemplating! im no expert but i have surfed a lot of boards, and a couple fish boards as well. i love these boards and im saving up for a fish

1) fishes, in my opinon, are easier to paddle. the flatter rocker typical of most fishes moves them across the water easier than something with a lot of rocker, so it seems to glide across the water. for that same reason there easier to catch waves with. as long as the wave isnt steep, youll glide right into it.

2) Fishes are good for a lot of conditions, but you probably woudlnt see them in anything over head high. short period and/or small waves is where they excel. in steep or huge waves youll probably want something with more rocker, so a fish wouldnt be good here. if you stayed under 5 foot waves, you would probably be fine.

3) i dont understand question 3. i am sorry

4) yes. bigger surfboard, easier to learn on. thats true across the board (no pun intended). however, most people like there fishes real small, because the thickness and width make up for length.

Hope that helps.

[scuba steve]

You've made one vital mistakes, fish surfboards are not easier than shortboards to ride and are not stabile.

1. They don't really conflict each other, the buoyancy makes them a bit awkward on the paddle out, but that is what helps them to glide into waves.

2. Good for small mush or small clean conditions, crap when it get steeper and hollower.

3. This is where you're makin the mistake, fishes are not a step down from like mini-mals, they're wobbly and require some experience.

4. I've never heard of a fat boy fish.

Basically, if you have confidence, willingness to learn and are able to trim and turn down the face of the wave with ease, a fish is a good bet for those sloppy summer waves.
However if this is not your skill level get a fat boy shortboard.
Also fishes are not designed for tricks and big carves so if this is direction you want to head with your surfing, don't get a fish. In my opinion, fishes are not really shortboard, they're like a small retro species of board.

[Sillysausage]

mhm, i think instead of a fat boy fish, you've seen a shortboard with a swallow tail? maybe, i don't know, but many big boards wouldn't be fish'? sorry but i have never had a fish, but i have ridden one for a day and it was a lot harder than my shortboard! might just take some getting used to, but i don't know

[Bub]

mhm, i think instead of a fat boy fish, you've seen a shortboard with a swallow tail? maybe, i don't know, but many big boards wouldn't be fish'? sorry but i have never had a fish, but i have ridden one for a day and it was a lot harder than my shortboard! might just take some getting used to, but i don't know

I can't find which board maker was calling them "fat-boy" fish boards but I found another one calling them "hybrid-fish" boards. Looks like basically fish design but about 6'6'' to 7'+ in length...get about 22'' wide and 2 3/4'' thickness. Say they are "Perfect surfboard for the larger surfer looking for more volume and length, or the beginner who wants the “look” of a shortboard but needs the extra float". I guess, in theory I can see that size board being easier than a standard fish or retro fish that seem to be generally under 6 ft in length. Nose on most of these looks like a shortboard (pointed not rounded) so maybe that was the "swallow-tail shortboard". I think regardless of the title, we're all talking about the same thing. Forgetting the title of the thing...for a novice/less experienced surfer looking to go the route of "shortboarder" would one of these 6'6''-7 footer "hybrid fish/fatboy fish/swallowtail shortboard etc." boards be a good route to go?

[Sillysausage]

i started on a shortboard and coped ok, it's really down to how much you can surf (how often) and your current level, it seems quite bouyant and large, so its up to you, what you want to ride, it is possible and this sounds like quite a big shortboard

[surfsc77]

You've made one vital mistakes, fish surfboards are not easier than shortboards to ride and are not stabile.

1. They don't really conflict each other, the buoyancy makes them a bit awkward on the paddle out, but that is what helps them to glide into waves.

2. Good for small mush or small clean conditions, crap when it get steeper and hollower.

3. This is where you're makin the mistake, fishes are not a step down from like mini-mals, they're wobbly and require some experience.

4. I've never heard of a fat boy fish.

Basically, if you have confidence, willingness to learn and are able to trim and turn down the face of the wave with ease, a fish is a good bet for those sloppy summer waves.
However if this is not your skill level get a fat boy shortboard.
Also fishes are not designed for tricks and big carves so if this is direction you want to head with your surfing, don't get a fish. In my opinion, fishes are not really shortboard, they're like a small retro species of board.

i find fishes much easier to ride than shortboards, maybe im weird

[eastcoastsurfshop]

The word "fish" now covers a msaaive amount of different boards

As I see it, you have got 2 main types of fish

1. Old Skool. Usually Twin Keel Fin with a large swallow tail. These are usually pretty thick, around 2.5" They have low entry rocker which makes them very flat, fast & easy to catch waves with. Not so easy to duck dive due to the increased volume in the deck. The design is based on old skool baords. Nice and smooth to ride, good carving turns but not for doing massive hacks.

2. New Skool. Shortboard style fish, again low entry rocker but not as falt as the old skool. Usually single concave, thinner rails but still with a bit of volume in the deck. Usually have tri fin set up or 2 + 1 trailer fin. Come with a smaller swallow tail, & sometimes a variety of wings. Easier to duck dive 'cos of the reduced volume. Slighly more thrashy due to the fins, wings, smaller swallow & sharper, thinner rails. Rusty Pirahna is a good example.

3. Bit of everything! Theres loads of boards about with a bit of both! Some of the quad fish coming out are pretty good. The ...Lost round nsoe quad seemed real popular in Portugal when I was there a few week back. Black & Whites do a nice double winged quad.

Hope that helps...

[scuba steve]

You've made one vital mistakes, fish surfboards are not easier than shortboards to ride and are not stabile.

1. They don't really conflict each other, the buoyancy makes them a bit awkward on the paddle out, but that is what helps them to glide into waves.

2. Good for small mush or small clean conditions, crap when it get steeper and hollower.

3. This is where you're makin the mistake, fishes are not a step down from like mini-mals, they're wobbly and require some experience.

4. I've never heard of a fat boy fish.

Basically, if you have confidence, willingness to learn and are able to trim and turn down the face of the wave with ease, a fish is a good bet for those sloppy summer waves.
However if this is not your skill level get a fat boy shortboard.
Also fishes are not designed for tricks and big carves so if this is direction you want to head with your surfing, don't get a fish. In my opinion, fishes are not really shortboard, they're like a small retro species of board.

i find fishes much easier to ride than shortboards, maybe im weird

I did'nt say fishes are harder than shortboards to ride, I said they are not a step down from mini-mals, they can be quite chalenging.

And Bub, I think the hybrid fish/ fatboy shortboard would probably work is probably the best route. Good Luck.

[Bub]

Thanks to those that have responded. I've received alot of good insights (and still see plenty of debate but thats what makes the forum enjoyable). This weekend coming up, I'm borrowing a friends shortboard to give a try out (I think its about 6'4'' but very narrow...like 18'' wide so I'm sure I'll struggle quite a bit). I'll let you know how I did next Monday and I think riding a board a foot shorter than the 7'4'' that I had success on might give me some more info. on whether I'm ready for shortboards or still need to stick with minimals/funboards for a while. Someone posted earlier that certain fish boards aren't very good at duck diving? Does that really matter, everything I'm reading here is that you aren't surfing a fish in big/rough surf so duckdiving isn't that essential. You should get beaten around that much on the paddle out in 3-4 foot summer surf.

[surfsc77]

You've made one vital mistakes, fish surfboards are not easier than shortboards to ride and are not stabile.

oh

[scuba steve]

You've made one vital mistakes, fish surfboards are not easier than shortboards to ride and are not stabile.

oh

erm, that does quote does not show I said they were harder.

[Driftingalong]

1st I'd say don't get a fish that is taller than you; they aren't really designed for that.

1) difficult to paddle out because I find I move slower through the water because of the decreased length. Easier to get into waves because of the rounder nose and great acceleration. I find in easier to get into waves than my 6'6" shortboard.

2) sounds good to me

3) all I can say is: I went from a 7'2" to a 6'6" to a 9'8" to a 5'8"

4) I'm not so sure that would be a good idea. If you're committed; be committed. You're next board and when to get it depends on you. How you're getting along on your current board and what you feel you need next. If you doing well; taking some leaps isn't that big of a deal. If not, maybe you shouldn't be looking for a new board just yet.

[hawaiiSUCKSexceptsurf]

i just bought at 6'2 fish yesterday and its amazing.

its harder to paddle out because its harder to duck dive. why does that conflict with it being faster?

[hawaiiSUCKSexceptsurf]

i would get something smaller though if i could return it. it is a bit of a shoch after riding a 6'4 shortboard

[Brent]

Fish are way faster for several reasons; firstly, they only have two fins. These two fins are "low aspect" (look that up elseware - this forum's not the place for hydrodynamics), they are facing almost straight ahead and don't have the drag that three fins canted inwards with toe-in create.
Secondly, the are faster because they have little entry rocker & generally a very flat bottom as well. This makes them "get up & go" real quick when you catch a wave. Thirdly, they have a large planing area ahead of centre - most fish have their wide point 2 inches ahead of centre.

Real fish are a weird beast; I love them. I bought my first real fish April 2006 (after 30+ years of shortboarding & hybrid-fish-ing) now I have two (both Channel Islands, one 5'9" and one 5'11") They go good in anything - they go good in slop, they go even better in 3-5 foot point break long fast face waves, They work in any waves you're capable of paddling into. Forehand or backhand - equally good. I've used my little fish in solid 8 foot plus, 14 second period Raglan Indicators...waves as fat as houses!

The best description I can give you is it's like riding a short skateboard - having spent your whole life on a 36". They're faster, turn quicker, plane better, glide, arc, carve way better than a shortboard, the more you turn the more speed you create - but they don't go vertical well, nor can you hack & slash on them.

If you want to school up on them hit the swaylocks website, or read up on Bob Simmonds who first created them, or skip frye, or well, just google fish!

The one thing I do earnstly suggest is - if you're going to buy a fish, buy a "real". Spend the money & get a name-brand one - made by someone who knows how to make them properly.

[Brent]

Oh forgot the paddling out thing. Fish are harder to paddle out for two reasons. 1) being short they don't have the leverage - a longer board gets it's nose down deeper when you go down, it's like a longer oar on a boat - make sense? And 2) a Fish having alot of volume as well make them alittle "corky". This is why they're harder to duck dive well, and slower to paddle. Like a racing yacht - long & thin = fast, short & wide = slow. I've ridden a vintage 5'3" recently and I was almost "swimming" the thing. It was like paddling a booger. But get it going & fleshin-hell. All over the place like a bar of soap. Amazing.

[Roy Stewart]

Part of the reason why fish can be a little harder to paddle is that they typically have less entry rocker.

Higher entry rocker gives more lift, which is what is needed at paddling
and paddling-in speeds

I agree with Brent on everything except the low entry rocker making the board takeoff faster, in fact a pronounced entry rocker helps with acceleration on takeoff, although the takeoff method can be adjusted for a flatter entry rocker so it's not always true.

An interesting thread.

[Bub]

You guys rock. Excellent feedback on the fish. I'm packing up the car as we speak to take the family to the beach for the day (thats my father's day present..go surfing for the day can't beat that). I'll check back in tomorrow morning.

[Bub]

I really struggled yesterday with the shortboard (but I knew that going in). I didn't catch a single wave with well over 20 popup attempts at least (probably more). The conditions didn't help either. The few waves of substantial size that came in were closeouts and usually I perilled or got out in front of the whitewater too far and got pushed forward by substantial whitewater but the board was so unstable that I could barely hang on while still riding on my belly let alone suceeding at a pop-up. I felt like I was riding a rodeo bull or bronco something. Out of the 50+ surfers I saw, my board was the narrowest one on the beach (18 inches). Also I learned firsthand (after reading alot about it) that when shortboarding, if the wave isn't steep enough to generate speed you can't poppup and catch the wave. Numerous times, I thought I was in position to catch the wave, and did a nice pop-up but as soon as I did so, the board sank down and the wave passed under me. That was frustrating.

But all in all, yesterday was a great day regardless (weather was perfect, my kids had a blast trying to surf with me etc)...I knew going into it that it would be tough time with that particular board I borrowed though!!!!