One less jetskier...

Have a chat about any general surfing related topics.

Postby slippery1 » Sun Apr 22, 2007 11:16 pm

Interesting read. Most of you come across as good guys. Plenty of posts on here from people I would say it'd be a privilege to share a drink with after a day on the surf. Shame about a couple of posts, though.

PapaWoolacombe's initial post was disappointing, to say the least. At first glance I'd put him in the 'Ar5ehole' category, but I think the honesty from the majority of surfers gave him a chance to reflect. I still think it was a shitty thing to post, even though we PWC users are often frustrated by irresponsible ski usage. Nobody misunderstood your initial post. Perhaps you'd had a bad day, but try engaging brain before typing, then people wouldn't misunderstand you.

Rev. S Boy wrote:I dont know much about jetski's, but i presume that you could go into a shop, buy one and then take it onto the water with no training at all ?

Is this true ?


Yes, I'm afraid that is the case. It's also pretty much the case for most non-commercially operated craft of all sizes. However, most people going to a dealer and parting with a fair amount of money will actually try to do things properly. The biggest problem is people buying a cheap ski from e-bay. They see it as a cheap bit of fun, but often don't consider training or insurance as necessary. Unfortunately these are the twats that you'll remember because a properly trained responsible skier is unlikely to put themselves into a situation where they are a danger to you or themselves.

Some superb views on legislation and the sea being for everyone to enjoy. It's fair to say that most responsible skiers would love to see some sort of well thought-through coherent legislation, as it would make the sea a safer place to be for everyone, and also help to protect the sport we love from falling prey to knee-jerk reactions from local councils etc. I personally believe that we're submitted to a constant stream of poorly thought-through 'Nanny State' legislation, fuelled by ignorance, while the important common sense stuff just doesn't seem to be on the agenda.

Also, posting your concerns on a Jet Ski forum such as pwcforums.co.uk wouldn't really help to spread the message. We'd certainly understand your frustrations, because they're the same as ours. The type of user who is a liability on the water is not going to be present on there. They simply wouldn't be interested in being involved as good ambassadors for our sport.

As many of us are involved in other areas of water-based activities, we get around other forums a bit, which is how we became aware of this post. About a year ago we had an interesting exchange of views with members of a yachting forum. After a 'healthy' exchange with a number of idiots, we found a common ground with a few users. Some of our guys actually met up with some of their members and had a great day. They had the opportunity to experience some very nice boats, and the motor yacht guys enjoyed some jet skiing. Ongoing friendships were formed from this, as well as a greater understanding of each others activities.

GowerCharger & Phil, sorry, but you're still firmly in the 'Ar5ehole' category. You can't be forgiven for likening us to chavs with a Nova!

Safe surfing. :D
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Postby gezzy » Mon Apr 23, 2007 4:28 pm

Guys,
There seems to have been some good points here and some real bad and crass comments as well.

I have to ask how many of you have spoken to a person who rides a jet bike(correct term as jet ski is a trade mark of Kawasaki).

I surf, admitedly not as much as i would like and am also a jet biker. I have respect for everyone who uses the water and wish that more people would. There was a comment made that you can just by a bike and take it out on the water....WRONG!!!!! most areas now have rules that state you not only have to have insurance(hoe many of you surfers do?) but also have to be trained to a high standard with a competent instructor sanctioned by the RYA.
How many times have we all seen the day surfer turn up with a tatty board and kit and got no idea about the rules of the waves etc??? so you cannot say that all bikers are the same. Most of us are responsible people.
Ask how many surfers have been pulled from the water by bikers???
How would the big wave riders in Hawaii manage without us bikers??

There are two sides to every story and for all that we know this guy could have been very experienced at both wave jumping and riding a bike.
I just think that the remakrs made by the thread starter and others on this thread to be both ill informed, ignorant and very insensitive.

I think it would do some people good to just talk to us bikers and get to know what goes on and try and have a go yourself before passing judgement on us.
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Postby Wisemans » Mon Apr 23, 2007 4:33 pm

cj wrote:Bad Karma Bro, Bad Karma.
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Postby neilfs » Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:16 pm

Well said Slippery1!
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Postby PapaW » Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:36 pm

Christ talk about dogs with bones, this thread is over 6 months old.

I still stick to what I said even now. It you others truly have read this thread tottaly then you'll see my reasons.
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Postby wavedancer » Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:02 pm

Stupid people annoy me too but he didn't deserve to die. :( It's still sad.
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Postby PapaW » Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:06 pm

Never said he deserved to....
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Postby jetskier » Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:13 pm

Right surfer people us chavs of the sea have arrived seen as we had to come to you about the problem as you couldn't come to us (we don't bite well except for one or two of us) most of you are quiet ok by the sounds of it but there's the one or two that seem to have taken a disliking to us but don't bitch behind our backs come talk and if u still dislike us at least tell us to our faces not hidden away in the hope that none of us will ever see it. Just thought id air my views on the matter any ways this water chav is of bye.
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Postby slippery1 » Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:35 pm

PapaWoolacombe wrote:Christ talk about dogs with bones, this thread is over 6 months old.

I still stick to what I said even now. It you others truly have read this thread tottaly then you'll see my reasons.


It's not really a case of “dogs with bones”. I became aware of your post only yesterday, and decided to post a reply. If all the replies had been in the same vein as your original post, I wouldn't have bothered, as I'm not really interested in coming onto someone else’s forum for the sake of winding them up.

However, the majority of the replies reflected on your users so well that I simply felt they deserved to hear that we jet skiers share their frustrations, and reinforce the fact that both our groups want the same thing. We want to be able to enjoy the water without people endangering us or our families.

Apparently, sailors hate jet skiers. Apparently, they see us as the lowest form of life. On the sailing forums, a lot of members are too frightened to stick their necks out and admit that they would actually quite like to try a jet ski, or that they don’t actually hate jet skiers. A few have, and they were flamed by other members. That's why I was so impressed by the majority of the replies to your post. It showed that members of this forum are true individuals with the courage to stand up and say what they think, regardless of peer pressure or trend.

With regard to the dead jet skier, while you may not have actually said he deserved to die, the topic title of “One less jetskier” infers that it was a good thing, and obviously didn’t go down too well with most of your fellow members represented in this thread, I’m glad to see.

I’m sure other members of pwcforums.co.uk would welcome your on our forum. We do like to take the p1ss, but we do have the highest respect for other like-minded water users.

Thanks.

By the way, we really don’t like being referred to as ‘Jet Bikers’ or ‘Water Bikers’, contrary to what you anyone else may tell you. :o
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Postby PapaW » Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:45 pm

we have 'come to you' many times. I've lost count the amount of times I personally have paddled over to advise said bikers on their proximity to the tide line, wakesleft speed etc only to have a barage of abuse in return.


Never had an issue in the SW but N.Wales and Anglesey was nothing but trouble. Doesn't help with the licenceing laws there eather.


Edit - And additionally I fully respect the approprate use of skis... they ARE a useful tool in the right place.. but taring up and down a nice cover or bay, ruining the serenity and spedng within meters of peoples heads.. Not good.

I'll say again (de ja vu!) it may well be a generaisation but when I and others who unfortuantly for me, don't post on forums have nothing but trouble, stick and have seen so many close shaves its hard to see otherwise.. you get me?
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Postby jetskier » Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:11 pm

In different situations a surf board can be just as dangerous as a jet ski (pwc for the picky people) anything at all can be dangerous in the wrong hands there are to many people who see a jet ski and automatically class them as being reckless. To ride a jet ski almost anywhere you must have an rya i think its been mentioned before but a surfer need not take any course the catch a wave in and all you need is a small child playing in the water and the results could be just as bad. Also i don't believe iv said anything on how i feel about you being disrespectful over the jet skier that passed away i feel that you shouldn't view any opinions that disrespects the dead in any way and especially as you don't know how much skill this person has he could have been the best in the world but one mistake is all it takes.
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Postby neilfs » Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:27 pm

PapaWoolacombe wrote:we have 'come to you' many times. I've lost count the amount of times I personally have paddled over to advise said bikers on their proximity to the tide line, wakesleft speed etc only to have a barage of abuse in return.


Fair enough, just don't tar everyone with the same brush - I've gone over to a fair few jetskiers over the years to ask them not to act like idiots around swimmers and other water users on my 'jetski' and had abuse also.

PapaWoolacombe wrote:Never had an issue in the SW but N.Wales and Anglesey was nothing but trouble. Doesn't help with the licenceing laws there eather.


The problem with all these by-laws, laws, permits and so on is they are all completely useless unless the authorities stand by their rules and regulations and enforce them - the authorities and police try, the courts and legal people are being complete prats and letting these idiots walk free.

I sit on many comittees to try and deal with the trouble makers who give our sport a bad name and time and time again the courts get hung up over what to call our craft. They can't even decide if they are a boat, craft or vessel - it's complete madness - we all know what they are, we should accept we're all talking about the same thing and get on and deal with the idiots. But I've seen so many dangerous users cases thrown out of court because the authorities have referred to a 'Sea-Doo' as a 'Jet Ski' - Sea-Doo being a trademark of Bombardier Recreational Products and Jet Ski being a trademark of Kawasaki.

I've seen many videos of surfers, professional surfers putting themselves in immediate danger, surfing onto rocks and coming away with severe injuries.

Both our sports are dangerous, and both our sports suffer from idiots - either as a result of a lack of knowledge and training or because they are just that sort of person who is a pain in the ass with whatever they do and involve themselves in.

PapaWoolacombe wrote:Edit - And additionally I fully respect the approprate use of skis... they ARE a useful tool in the right place.. but taring up and down a nice cover or bay, ruining the serenity and spedng within meters of peoples heads.. Not good.


Agreed!

But I've seen many surfers surf into the swimming areas on Fistral beach, and saw a young girl with a nasty cut to the side of her face because of such a surfer!

PapaWoolacombe wrote:I'll say again (de ja vu!) it may well be a generaisation but when I and others who unfortuantly for me, don't post on forums have nothing but trouble, stick and have seen so many close shaves its hard to see otherwise.. you get me?


As I've said above, just because I saw one surfer acting a prat I not tarring all surfers with that brush.

All we ask is you do the same and respect the fact that our sport suffers from idiots as does any sport.

We'd like to help you deal with them, because what is certain - the authorities when tasked with the job of dealing with any minority of idiots make a pigs ear of things except when it comes to persuing all users for newly created permits.

How would you like it if because of a few users your local council started charging all surfers to surf? The idiots continue to be idiots and often are the only ones who don't pay up.
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Postby northswell » Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:42 pm

To the above, the Fistral incidence was probably due to overcrowding, lack of respect, and lack of appreciation of those around you.

No one has said that there aren't skiers that can't appreciate the waves in the same way that we do!

Difference is i know a "skier" who has just changed over to surfing. Oops and he kinda admits your nobs. He is even worried that he may be mowed down at one of his prefferd beachies.

ok.
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Postby neilfs » Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:17 am

northswell wrote:To the above, the Fistral incidence was probably due to overcrowding, lack of respect, and lack of appreciation of those around you.


Exactly, so you had rougue surfers who should have sat back and waited for the first lot to get cold/tired before they headed in. Nothing excuses any surfer from going into a swimming/body boarding area.

Maybe the authorities should have been managing the beach better and controlling the numbers a bit better. We both know in reality that is an easier said than done task. Rogue surfers, skiers each of our sports have them and it's about educating them so they become respectful better water users.

If I saw any surfers when out I'd give them a wide birth and if I wanted to jump waves I'd wait until either they were finished and out of the water or find some other waves to jump. One key reason for that is when jumping a wave, you cannot see what is immediately behind the wave, and I would never want to land one someone.


The next time I'm involved in tow-in surfing on a lake! I'll be interested to hear their views.

I don't appreciate being tarred with being a nob just because I ski - you're a lost cause, as far as I am concerned you've got a group of respectful jetskiers trying to investigate the reasons behind your complains so we can help to improve things for everyone by educating our own into surfing rules etc.
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Postby Phil » Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:14 am

the thing is, you cant really compare beginner surfers to the muppets that play around on crowded beaches wave jumping

beginner surfers have to start some where it’s a hard sport to learn so the odd accident is going to happen, its just common sense to keep away from these people. Plus the fact life guards in the summer are on all main beachs and put the beginners between the safety flags.

Also you can’t really compare a surfer that charges a hollow reef and gets hurt to some muppet wave jumping on a ski in a heavily populated break. Its one thing to put your own life at risk, its another to endanger the life of others.

Theres been a lot of press coverage over the last few years

“Man nearly dies after being hit by jet ski off Weymouth beach”
“Two 15 year old girls nearly drown while jet skiing”
“Girl pulled from sea was close to death”

How many of you know the small craft handling rules and regulations?
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Postby tl1000gussie » Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:07 am

Good points well made neilfs.

Sadly the media like to tar all skiers in the same BAD light, as owners of all bull terriers/dobermans/rottweliers and alsations. (ignoring the fact that most childen are bitten by labradors and collies) but those facts are not as newsworthty.

If you have had bad experiences with jet skis , i can understand your frustration, especially when offering shallow water advice, to help people.

Very few positive things get reported, as they are not newsworthy.

Surley you guys have lots of problems, with inexperienced surfers, causing you problems as well, the ocean is a big place for all of us to use, and the initial comment shows you may not be a good human being, which i think is more important, than how you move accross the ocean.

I do not want to get into any situation where there are lots of water users, and will only jump waves in a close proximity with people I know and trust.

Thanks to all those who have had great attitiudes to this post, and it gives me faith in humanity again.
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Postby Lizzie Neale » Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:29 pm

Sounds like many of you guy's think the waters are for surfers only!

DON'T BE SO BLOODY SELFISH

And Have some respect !!!

LIVE AND LET LIVE !

ZIPPY x
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Postby PapaW » Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:31 pm

Oh get over youselves....:roll:

I'm not changing what I've said I think its a fair enough opinion, people may dissagree, thats fair enough too.
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Postby Jimi » Wed Apr 25, 2007 1:54 am

I get the distinct feeling that this argument will never be acceptably resolved for a few reasons.

I have involvement in 4x4 clubs, yachting, trail-bikes and obviously, surfing.

Regarding the jetski vs other water user debate:

It is obvious that the majority of users (at least in australia) abide by the legal obligations of safe navigation, and adhere to PWC (jet ski) exclusion zones around certain waterways and other water users. In most cases, the users of PWCs are perfectly reasonable people, who care greatly about the protection of their sport, and take great offence at generalisations (like some of those expressed in this thread) because idiots can spoil it for everyone.

In Australia, there have been a large number of 'incidents' where PWC users have been blamed (usually for negligent and dangerous behaviour) where other water users have been injured, and sometimes killed.

For example, at my local sailing club, a jet ski jumped a wave, right into the side of a boat that was racing. All sailing boats have right of way in this situation, and the 3 people on board all suffered serious injuries, and one was killed. The Jet skier did not stop at the scene of the accident to help the injured, but fled.

It is examples like this that severely damage the reputation of all PWC users, and these examples are also reported in the media, leading to a generally negative stereotype. You NEVER hear about the 12,000 other PWC users who always ride carefully, and so the stereotype is not easily shed.

The same attitudes are expressed to 4wd and trail bikers in australia, as these practices are seen to be highly environmentally destructive, and yet 99% of 4wd drivers and bikers take a great deal of care by adhering to existing tracks, and especially collecting litter whilst out in nature. Unfortunately this is never reported, but everybody hears about the "crazy 4wd that drove through a rainforest killing endangered marsupials".


What can be done? Well, at the very least, everyone should adhere to the rules and make sure rule breakers are not welcome on the water. In australia, most heavily populated areas are now PWC exempt (ie it is illegal to ride (even at non-planing speeds) in these areas, which include Sydney Harbour. Also, PWC users are required to undertake a special license test with more details about safety to other waterway users, and can be severely fined for riding unlicensed.

Also talk to people, and make sure that when negative events happen, that these events are isolated and not typical of most riders.
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Postby PapaW » Wed Apr 25, 2007 7:10 am

Jimi - One of the best responses I have ever read. Nice one :clap:
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