Epoxy surfboards.

[leolivi]

I knew about bic surfboards, then i was looking around the internet and saw that many other companies build these kind of durable and cheap boards.

I saw that surftech builds performance boards. So, Who knows about these other companies boards? are they good?

I am going to live in texas and am thinking about leaving my surfboard here in Brazil, so when i get there i´ll probably buy an epoxy new board. Is it worth it?

[babyboarder89]

i asked this guy at the surfstatin this a while ago and he said

" the only reason some surf shops sell them is because of the massive profit they make on them, I will not sell them. I won't even trade them in.

I have been in the surfing industry on and off since 1968 and have made 1000s and 1000s of boards in my life time both pop outs and custom boards and I would not recommend a surftech to any one. we have a surfboard repair factory so we see damaged ones day after day, the average repair cost for a custom board is £20 the average repair cost for a surftech is £60.

Bics have been around for 20 years or more and will be around long after surftech are gone (and they are strong)"

hope this helps

[leolivi]

So bics are fine and surftechs are not?

Is going for a custom fibregrass better for a somewhat beginner?

sorry, but i didnt understand what the guy meant...

[H2ODog]

If you are a beginner you might be better of with a Softop, it's also made by Surftech. They are used here in Santa Cruz because they are tough and can take a beating, plus if you hit yourself or someone else (hopefully not) the impact is a little less damaging. They are not as responsive as a quality glass board but if you don't know how to control your board you will defenitly get it banged up and a glass board can get ruined in a hurry. I have a custom glass board G&S and love it but i use a softop when i take my kids out to a crowded place like Cowells. If you ever seen a weekend day at Cowells you would understand why. The chances that someone will make contact with you are high so a Softop can get away without damage where a glass board may not. Once you get better you will have no problem selling it, people look for them all the time.

[elias]

epoxy boards are the best. they are better for the environment. more responsive. more ding resistant. uv resistant. lighter. stronger. and you can have that majic board produced as much as you want. epoxy is the future of surfing.

[jonny]

epoxy is the future of surfing.

the future of surfing if you want to see the artisan, craftsmanship of making a board die out!!

Who wants a mass produced board that has been popped out some factory in Thailand? That's al lthey are in my eyes - a premium end pop-out.

AND - lighter ISN'T necessarily better. When a surfboard is designed and made a certain weight then that's the weight it works best at.

plus they DO ding and you'll struggle to find someone who can mend it.

If you are going to pay, for example, for a Takayama Surf-tech - why don;t you just be a genuine custom Takayama instead?

[Guest]

As a surfer who works in business (not the surf industry) I see benefits in both.

Once you get a master crafted board, made by hand, by an expert shaper & glassed beautifully you'll love it...but a year later when it's getting tired or dinged up......the only way to replicate that board in order to replace it is with scanning, profiling and cutting machinery. No manual shaper on earth can 100% exactly replicate that board by hand. I don't care what they claim.

I see advantages in both manual craftsmen and mass production. Mass production brings to the market a consistancy that has never been there and higer levels of glassing standards, fin plugs that do not pull out, it will eventually bring about other more advanced methods of glassing (i.e carbon fiber technology that's just begging to be used in surfboards).
Boards will be lighter, better made, more consistantly strong, there will ultimately be more variety, at a good price.

I also see mass production as a way for currently manual board makers to free up their real creative time to make innovative cutting edge boards...and let the machines "mow-foam" for the masses to pay the bills.
Perhaps the surfboard industry is so slow moving design & innovation wise nowdays because everybody is so busy mowing-foam to pay the bills...nobody has the free time and lack of financial contstraints (ah la George Greenought decades ago) to truely experiment and come up with ground breaking designs ?

Why is it that apart from fin technology and board volumes and shapes....Boards are essentially unchanged design & manafacturing wise now from Simon Andersons thruster padigram shift in 1982?

God...we still use wax to obtain grip.. This is 2004 people. Why aren't we riding 2kg carbon fiber surfboards that never ding, with deck grip that never wears out, fins that cannot break with legropes that do not spagetti & snap.
Regardless of the stalwards...unless domestic U.S manafacturers accept & embrace change...they will be taken over and will essentially die (ah la the American Automobile industry in the 1970's) the comments & fear I read about in the American surfboard manafacturing industry are EXACTLY the same comments I heard back then.....and look what happened to Detroit ;-)

Or a more current example for you all is the bicycle industry, it was stagnant in the mid 1980's, Campagnolo were the only real road bike groupsets on the market...everything was expensive and old fashioned......now look at it, when the Japanese (Shimano) got involved look what happened...look at the variety and availability out there now. Look what happened when Asia got involved and started making bicycle frames also......look how much better the market is now, more choice, consistant quality standards...you name it, you'll find the same key manafacturers are still there....but their baseline models are built in Asia, the American manafacturers like Merlin, Trek, Lightspeed, Cannondale etc are all still there...catering for the top end of the market.

Surfboard making will be exactly the same.

I for one will be first in the line to buy my favourite board I have now, replicated for me by a scanner and cutting machine and made from carbon fiber with permanant deck grip, with an innovate fin system. And I hope my current board maker is the one who's seized the business oppertunity and can offer it to me ...not hidden his head in the sand.

Innovate or die

Brent

[Guest]

im curious has anyone here been on a surf tech board i was reading into it and noticed alot of top name shapers are making these boards now G&S, McTravis etc so i wouldnt mind knowing how the performance differs from normal custom boards

[no1uno]

hey brent..
i dug your rant. do you know anything about bob miller epoxies? should i cross over?

[Guest]

sorry no I don't. I know very little about expoxies and cannot recommend anything. Why not borrow one & try it? Let us all know what you think.

I'd love somebody to give an honest objective review of normal V Epox boards of comparable size. (i.e not your favourite lightweight 6 foot fish compared to a 7'6" nanna-board).

cheers, Brent

[dave the wave]

I got back into surfing in 2002 after a five year layoff. When I picked up Longboard mag. I saw all the ads for epoxy boards. I called a couple surf shops about them. No one informed me that they were made overseas. I thought they were made in the U.S.A. Also, no one told me anything negative about them. I had no reason to investigate anything. All I heard was that they were lighter,stronger, and floated unreal. I bought a 9'1" yater surftech. It paddled great, felt very fast, and seemed forgiving if you overturn a cutback. I surf it in everything from Point breaks to Jalama beach breaks. The only negative performance wise is it does not nose ride well. But, it was not designeed for that. It does not have concave in the nose. Also, I slammed the nose into a sharp corner of my trucks tailgate and nothing happened but a chip of paint broke off. They do break though, but day to day dings are non existant. My board looks brand new and I surf rocky point breaks where I know its scraped rocks from time to time. Even with all this said, had I known it was made in Thialand, (No, it's not written on my board) I would not have bought it. I rode epoxy boards on a recent trip to Hawaii. They were thicker then my board and floated way to much. I felt like I was skimming the surface the whole time. See ya' later.

[Guest]

A friend of mine send me a Yater 7'6 surftech, been riding it now and again since i still love my 7'0, but i must admit that this Yater stick really has something that makes me pickin it up now and again. Rides smooth

[guest]

i'm completely new to surfing and i really want to get my own board. after doing some preliminary research, i'm no closer to a board than i was a couple of weeks ago. i'm 5'5" and i want to get a board that is big enough to be stable but still light enough to be transportable. my friend just bought an epoxy board and she loves it. is there anyone who can give me reasons why i should/should not go that same route? i live in california and will most likely be surfing out of huntington beach. given my height and where i'm surfing, is there a particulare length, width and thickness that i should be looking for?

thanks for any insight you can provide!
~the rookie

[coz]

ummm hello people i am completely against pop outs. a surfboard that is made by a shaper is so much more meaningfull b/c you have that connection with the shaper. when you buy a basketball you dont feel a connection with mr. spalding do you? surftech and bic are terrible companies and i would never even think of buying their product. pop outs are against all that surfing is for in my opinion. surfing is spiritual and machines are not. dont buy a bic worst decision you will ever make. GET A FIBREGLASS!!!

[Guest]

Then why is it Coz that the best shapers in the world (Al Merrick etc) are turing to shaping & profiling machines in droves. In the latest Surfer Magazine there is an interesting article on board production. In it I believe Al quotes this typical example.

Say a guy walks into a shop in Brazil...or for that matter any internet Cafe in the world, he's already got one of my boards he bought in the US. He emails me & says I love this board but I've just cracked it or put a fatal ding in the nose it's only good for another week or so before it completely dies. He emails me the serial number off the bottom of the board along with a comment he'd like it abit looser in the tail, slightly less volume or whatever. He emails me his personal contact details & credit card number for payment.

I can then open up the file for that surfboard within my computer database, tweak the shape slightly as per the buyers comments and send the electronic file to the shaping booth machine for cutting. Realistically, within 45 mins of receiving his original email the board will be cut, shaped, sanded, fcs fin holes cut or whatever....and it's off to the glassing booth. It'll be delivered to him as soon as it cures.

This board is no different from one I spent 3 hours in the booth with. Why? because I designed the original and this board is a refinement of that original. A machine allows me to alter and tweak shapes far more accurately than by hand. This board is the real deal. It's just the production method is more refined.

Think about it Coz. With internet & electronic cutting machinery...you too could own a real Al Merrick or similar dream shapers board, shaped by the man himself. Where you live or the fact you're not Kelly Slater is no longer an issue.

I wrote above an earlier post on the issue of surfboard design & construction. My comments were. I believe surfboard construction is begging for innovation. We are still using 1960's methods (foam & fiberglass) and paying the price. We have inconsistant glassing standards, boards that are too fragile, why do we accept for example pressure dings on the deck....we just accept that as normal. With decent technology you can make areas like that stronger
A board you spend all your hard-earned money on lasts a year or so when used frequently, leash plugs that pull out, fins break, leashes snap, and god...we still use wax to obtain grip.

I believe also because most shapers are so busy mowing foam to pay the bills that nobody has the time to create whole new designs and experiement...perhaps freeing up the time of the top shapers to experiement more will result in better boards for us all....look at surfing objectively Coz....we're still using the basic thruster concept created by Simon Anderson in 1982. If you look at advances in other sports that use lightweight materials & hydrodynamic/aerodynamic theories like America's Cup yacht racing or bicycle racing equipment, look how far they're gone in 20 years...but no, we're still stuck in the 1980's.

Don't be afraid of technology Coz, if used properly and combined with the knowledge top shapers already have it will result in better constructed, longer lasting, cheaper & more refined surfboards for all of us.

My dream board is a carbon fiber 5'10" fish, it'll weigh only about 2 kilos. It'll have a fin system so cool it's not even invented yet, ;-) it'll never need waxing because it hase permanant deck grip built into the deck. It is highly polished underneith and is faster as a result. It'll never pressure ding as the carbon fiber is laid thicker on those specific areas that get hammered by my right knee when duck-diving (this factor was built into it's design when I ordered it). It'll have a softer impact area built into the immediate nose area (also requested when I ordered it) so I don't hurt anybody if I hit them.

I'm almost 40 now Coz, surfed off & on since I was 8, and I have seen not much change in boards in my surfing lifetime. But look at wetsuits, boardshorts etc in this same time period.....look how far they've come since the big players like Billabong & Ripcurl got involved and started using modern technology to invent better materials and design methods to make better products. Are we not winners there? Why should surfboards be any different?.

Bring on the future I say. But paying homage & learning from what we already know and using this knowledge wisely to make our sport better.

Brent

[coz]

the problem with all that stuff is that one factor lays in. money. the money to buy those machines, carbon fibre, and eventually the price of boards will sky rocket. and i have had one of my boards for going on 3 years now and have only had 3 dings. think about it the problem when it comes to durability isnt the board its us. we are to careless about our equiptment because of our attitude torwards our equiptment. and we have made impovements since the 80's. like the bonzer 5 fin surfboard. 80's concept that we have improved.we have tons of knew ideas its juts putting them to the drawing board. i still stand by what i said and know i will never buy a pop-out. our other problem is that we only have 4 top shapers that actually know what they are doing. the rest of them are just learning. it takes years to learn how to make boards as good as guys like al merrick, rusty, robert august, and the few top shapers that we have. we need to promote shaping to people not machines. i will always stand by this.

[coz]

also guest to add to my post above i think there is nothing wrong with old designs. look at the soccer cleat. they have innovated it so many times over and over but the most common cleat worn is the adiddas copa. the adiddas copa is one of the oldest designs in soccer cleats but it still prevails over all the new technology.we have had tons of innovations in surfboard design but they didnt catch on. i guest you must have missed the double ender, the u.s.o, and the bonzer. have you ever shaped a board yourself. have you ever researched what goes into a board. i research surfing origins, surfboard designs, heroes, and current events everyday on the internet and everything that i have instilled in my brain tells me that machines are not made for surfing. what if a machine is gets a defect over time and boards are made while this defect is going on unknown and hundreds of boards are sold while this defect is ruining your stick. now we have a problem dont we. what do you tell hundreds maybe even thousands of people if you are al merrick. think about what it would cost you to give them all their money back or even a new board. now do you see the problem with pop-outs. lets stick to the old fasioned way shall we.

[coz]

just one more thing. why arent the top 44 for the asp wct using tuflite technology, surftechs, or bics? considering they get anyboard they want then why havent they started riding them (unless you havent noticed none of the top 44 ride them). can you name one pro that rides a pop-out on a regular basis?

[Guest]

Coz I think we are talking about two different things here. You're talking about surfboards specifically.....and I'm talking about materials & methods we use to make them.
Re Pop-outs: I believe at this stage in their life they are planks for the masses (wow I can hear the crowds frothing for my blood as I write that). But there are lessons & production methods we can take on board from the way they are made.

1) No there are no top riders using them. why? because they don't have to...they don't pay for their boards, their boards have an expected life-span of several weeks at most and their surfboard needs are different.
Coz - using that example you are trying to compair Toyota Corolla's with LeMans racing cars. A top racing driver wouldn't turn up at an event in a Toyota Corolla...nor would I expect a top surfer to break out a fun-board or BIC for the final of the Billabong Pro..

2) Production methods used in these cheapo budget boards will eventually filter upwards and make for higher quality epox & other exotic materials that will be eventually used to make "real" surfboards guys like us love & use.
Think of the car example again Coz. In the 1980's the American motor industry was in tatters. From 1960 until 1980 the Americans had tried to hold onto that old idea that exclusive & "ole fashioned methods" were better than mass production. Sure at first the Japanese cars were crap (just like early generation epox & BIC boards), but as time moved on....look what happened when the Japanese sorted themselves and developed better products. American made cars have all but disappeared from the roads (in my country anyway) as a result.

The arguments & fear I see expressed about moving on from foam & fiberglass surfboards and looking ahead to carbon fibre, epox & other more modern methods are exactly the same comments expressed by section Managers of General Motors 20 years ago about mass production methods & new technology, almost word or word actually Coz. Where are those boys now? Answer: They work for Toyota.

3) Crap: a surfboard does not "ding" because I am not careful with it. A surfboard dings becaue it is not physically strong enough for the purpose it's intended. Take a bicycle for example Coz. Does the frame buckle when you go over a small pot-hole. No, If you lean on the side of your Dad's car door..does it buckle? hell-no.
So why should a surfboard get a pressure ding on the deck from your knee when doing a duck-dive in 2 foot surf.....no way. That's not acceptable for any product you pay good money for. But for some reason we surfers just think that's ok. We accept stuff like that because the current construction methods available to us now are all there is at this time. Because we want light boards..is that too unreasonable?.

4) With automation & bigger numbers comes a business thing called "economies of scale" Coz. That means when you make more surfboards, bikes, cars or whatever the costs to make them actually go down not up. even with the outlay of the production machinery to start with....costs still go down. Your raw materials reduce in price as you're buying more....at bigger discounts.

I have never made a surfboard myself Coz, but my best friend is a shop owner & good shaper where I live. I spend alot of time just chatting to him while he mows foam. I just love to watch the magic happen. He knows about boards & I know about business. We have alot to talk, drink beer & argue about. Truth is Coz, for him making boards is such a long-winded, unhealthy (chemicals & dust) & time consuming process at the moment and he has to work so damm hard just to pay the bills. He spends about 5 hours a day shaping & finishing in the booth (he has to make & sell about 11 boards a week currently to break-even) when he could be working on new ideas. He has many, like a redevelopement on a Bonzer idea with massive dual concaves instead of full-size fins (just using very small trailers instead). He never gets around to doing them...because he's so busy doing manual shaping.

He said to me when I raised this thread in conversation yesterday after work -alot of manual shapers really are not very good. They're not magicians, they can't re-create boards that have broken, or even get close to the original, they don't listen to their customers properly when they want to refine a current shape for a new board - and in reality many just build crap boards, just cause it's made entirely by hand doesn't mean it's good.

His exact words yestersday Coz; "I can make a bad board with a machine....but I can make a bad board much easier by hand".

He says as CAD software gets cheaper & a profile cutting system becomes available mass-market he'll jump big-time. He reckons he'll be able to make more better boards, he'll never have a bad day & stuff up another blank in the shaping booth when he has a hangover, or get orders mixed up. He'll be able to tweak boards better, they'll be shaped faster, to a higher standard and he'll be able to spend more time doing what he should...out the shop front listening & interpreting his customers surfboard needs.

Of course like everybody who's made the jump so far (like Al Merrick & co) he'll do all the final finishing by hand, all the rail sanding, glassing & final quality control is still done manually....that will never change. Just the grunt work mowing foam blanks out the back.

Some guys get all emotional about surfboards & the way they're made Coz, they swear doing it by hand is the best way, they go on about tradition, history, craftsmenship, quality etc etc...curiously it's not the guys actually making them doing all this talk Certainly not the one guy I know who actually does it for a living.

Brent.

[Guest]

Hi again Coz.
I was at the office before (a quiet friday) and didn't have sources to hand. I'm at home now, and want to quote you some references re epox surfboards and technology in shaping. You'll be quite suprised.

Re Epox:
Al Merrick, John Carpenter, Greg Webber, Xanadu, Rusty, Lost, Dick Brewer & Jeff Bushman all offer "Tuflite" models available from Surftech. There are over 200 production models to choose from (as at June 2004). According to Randy French there are about 12 additional different boards from various shapers per month being added to the list and made under licence. Tom Carroll especially is working in this field with R & D.

Quote: Greg Loehr "it doesn't matter what the percentage of the market is epoxy now, at some point in the future it will be near 100%. Everything in the world now that is good & fun is made from epoxy, from jet fighters to boats, from wakeboards to golf clubs, surfboards are the very last to follow, I know most don't admit it but even the stodgiest custom shapers are investigating epoxy as a means to compete in the future"

I'm not sure I agree with him Coz...but he knows more than me about surfboards & the Biz...

Re Tchnology & shaping machines etc:
Firstly, some background for you, the most common & best technology today is a "surfCAD.DSD" machine & software invented by Luciano Leao (Brazilian) in 1998. He was ironically, a medical doctor who surfed. His friend a surfboard shaper named Jeff Bushman was arguing with him about board shaping in 1994 and he challanged him to make an automatic shaping programme that actually worked. So the eccentric nutter doctor did. It took him 4 years to get it to production & release it on the market. It is a patented CAD programme & machine that can cut a whole blank to an accuracy of 1/100mm needing only a light sanding before glassing. It is used by some of the worlds best shapers you described earlier.

Rusty Preisendorfer; "I'm addicted to our surfCAD.DSD machine, it's allowing for custom board refinements never before possible, I have to continue to evolve as my craft evolves. Once upon a time the tool was a drawknife, then it was a planer, the next great shaper will be a computer wizard".

Eric Arakawa; "This is how incredible this technology is, no matter who you are, where you live or how good you are as a surfer you can get an honest-to-god Arakawa, Rusty, Mahem, Rawson or whoever you choose. No longer do you have to be a pro surfer to have a board shaped by the worlds best shapers. These are true custom boards from legtimate guru shapers".

Pat Rawson; "Fortunately surfCAD technology has leveled the playing field for guys like me. It's shocking my shaping business nearly didn't survive the lean years because of my adversion towards mass production. Now, I go to six different places in the world to service 29 different countries, I email files ahead of me and have 50 different boards cut & waiting for me to finish them off when I get there".
"85% of my customers have been surfing for more than 10 years, they know exactly what they want. My customers are guys who want each board to be better refined and a progression from their last".

Nathan Myers of Surfing Magazine writes;
"Every shaper involved with CAD systems is in total agreement. Pure Enthusiasm. There is nothing bad about these systems, large-scale shapers producing true custom boards for the least of their customers. Custom gurus raisning the bar of creative refinement while still meeting the needs of their expanding market."

The best till Last Coz....
Jeff Bushman; "The average guy buying a board, he's getting the best board possible, he's not getting something built off a plug 6 months ago. He's getting what's current. As far as the whole creative process goes we're going to see better boards worldwide Which is incredible, because if the boards keep getting better, well, that's what it's all about.

God.'ve I've written a novel again. Sorry. These are the worlds best shapers you talked about earlier Coz. They're not afraid of the future and technology ...neither should you be.

Brent
ps. I'm done on this topic.