Surfing an old nose riding board

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Re: Surfing an old nose riding board

Postby waikikikichan » Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:55 pm

RinkyDink wrote: Water is sticky. In my mind, if I want to design a craft that is faster, then I want as little of that craft to touch the water as possible. Why? Because I don't want the friction between the water and the watercraft to slow me down.

Surfing has a lot of Opposites. General thinking would have you think a Glossed-Polished shiny board would be faster than a Sanded-finished dull board, but actually a sanded finished board is faster than the glossed. Maybe the smooth golf ball versus the dimpled golf ball effect.
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Re: Surfing an old nose riding board

Postby waikikikichan » Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:00 pm

dtc wrote:Indeed, from my point of view increasing the tail rocker is probably a better choice than increasing the nose rocker (obviously up to a point) because the downside of more tail rocker is usually that the board is a bit slower when on the wave, but with nose rocker the board is slower when you are paddling and also on the wave (although turning is easier).

When Ben Aipa was shaping my board, he asked me some general questions..... weight, surfing level, surf break, goals. Then he asked me " you want me to shape you a fast board or a board you can make go fast ? " After getting all my responses, he proceeded to but the blank on the shaping stand. Paused for a moment, THEN he spun the blank around, so the nose rocker became the tail rocker and vice-versa.
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Re: Surfing an old nose riding board

Postby RinkyDink » Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:00 am

oldmansurfer wrote:I think tail rocker essentially shortens the board as far as the wave is concerned. So the push you get from the board is less than that of a board without tail rocker. I think this is only in a down the line aspect. But the wave is pushing on the bottom of the board steadily till it gets to the tail rocker then suddenly that surface drops away and the board has less push. This would be at planing speed so essentially the rocker part of the tail comes off the wave a bit and less force is applied to that area occupied by the rocker. Speed is created by the wave pushing on the board (except for turning up and down the wave ie speed turns)and once you are planing the more board surface pushing the faster you go. Now this is completely obliterated by the speed that can be generated by turning rapidly on a steep wave which is why longboard don't do as well on steep fast waves.. I think there are however situations where you get the board in the right place and rocker helps it to fit that place and makes it go faster but those situations aren't the majority of the wave at least for us kooks :) (unless you are riding straight in)


I think my understanding of a wave's "push" is a little different from yours. It's always complicated with me :D Sometimes when I'm out surfing an unbroken wave will approach me and I'll just sit on my board motionless. I've sat there plenty of times as the wave breaks about six inches behind me. I've never been pushed forward by an unbroken wave. I bob up and down. The only time I feel like I'm "pushed" is when the lip of the wave throws out. If I'm up at the lip and stay there, the wave's lip will throw me forward too. If I'm under the lip in the midsection of the wave, there's a good chance I'll just bob up and down as the wave breaks over me and I'll pop out the back. Water is sticky, however, so if the wave starts plunging, then I might stick to the water at the top of the wave and get sucked over the falls. My point is that I think it's important to get rid of the notion that a wave is pushing stuff forward. A wave, in my mind, is essentially a moving, watery ski slope. That slope is moving forward and the water it comes up against just sloshes up and down as the cylinder of energy passes through that area of water.

Besides the plunging lip I also feel a push from white water. It's important for me to remember, though, that white water is not being pushed by the wave. The white water is cascading down the slope of the wave. This is easier to see when you watch the huge waves at Nazare. Watch how the white water rolls down the slope of the wave. As far as I can tell, the whitewater isn't being pushed; it's falling down the face of the wave face.

Anyway, there is a "push" that is important with regard to a wave. That's the push a surfer makes when they weight their board by moving around on it. In other words, the way a surfer pushes down on their board with their body will generate speed, It works the same way on a ski slope, ramp, or any incline. How does this apply to surface area? I suspect that the more a surfer puts pressure on the deck of their board, the more speed they will generate. If their board isn't in contact with the water (more tail rocker), then that push on the board from the surfer will not convert to board speed. I think that's what's going on :D Sometimes I have to write about this stuff to clarify it in my own mind, but I have no idea if I'm right or not. So take what I say with a grain of salt.
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Re: Surfing an old nose riding board

Postby dtc » Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:08 am

waikikikichan wrote: After getting all my responses, he proceeded to but the blank on the shaping stand. Paused for a moment, THEN he spun the blank around, so the nose rocker became the tail rocker and vice-versa.


so did you want a fast board or a board you could make go fast? Given that tail rocker is usually lower than nose, maybe the former? But given your surfing ability, I would guess the latter.

so... I'm a good chance of guessing right

for RinkyDink

https://www.gotscience.org/2017/10/wave ... e-surfing/
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Re: Surfing an old nose riding board

Postby oldmansurfer » Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:09 am

Water goes in circle but the mass of the wave moves forward the mass pushes you but only if you are at sufficient speed already. The force of gravity is not helping if you are going down the line. You are neither falling nor rising. It's not the individual molecules that move you but the forward momentum of the mass of water transferred from one molecule to the next. If you have ridden many bigger waves then you would know there is a situation that happens where you start to drop down a wave but suddenly the force of the wave standing up makes the water on the face of the wave go upward and it pulls you back over the top of the wave making you miss it entirely even though you already are on a steep incline and have some momentum from dropping down the face 10 or 15 feet. I know you don't think water goes up the face but it does. It's complicated. If the surfer pushing on the deck makes forward momentum why do you sink when you leave the wave? It's not the surfer it's the wave interacting with the planning surface of the surfboard. You can also fall down the face of a wave with just gravity however that doesn't make you go down the line..
So what is worse.... dying or regretting it for the rest of my life? Obviously I chose not regretting it.
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Re: Surfing an old nose riding board

Postby waikikikichan » Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:31 am

dtc wrote:so did you want a fast board or a board you could make go fast? Given that tail rocker is usually lower than nose, maybe the former? But given your surfing ability, I would guess the latter.

I actually wanted a "Fast board" at first, but he patiently explained to me the difference, so I trusted his vast knowledge. And this was my 2nd custom board , the first was a disaster from me ordering every bell and whistle on the menu from another shaper who did "whatever" you wanted. At the time, It was only about a year into my surfing, so I didn't have much technique at all, but the guys at the factory were sick and tired of me borrowing their boards.
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Re: Surfing an old nose riding board

Postby RinkyDink » Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:37 pm

dtc wrote:
waikikikichan wrote: After getting all my responses, he proceeded to but the blank on the shaping stand. Paused for a moment, THEN he spun the blank around, so the nose rocker became the tail rocker and vice-versa.


so did you want a fast board or a board you could make go fast? Given that tail rocker is usually lower than nose, maybe the former? But given your surfing ability, I would guess the latter.

so... I'm a good chance of guessing right

for RinkyDink

https://www.gotscience.org/2017/10/wave ... e-surfing/



Good link, thanks!
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Re: Surfing an old nose riding board

Postby RinkyDink » Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:40 pm

oldmansurfer wrote:Water goes in circle but the mass of the wave moves forward the mass pushes you but only if you are at sufficient speed already. The force of gravity is not helping if you are going down the line. You are neither falling nor rising. It's not the individual molecules that move you but the forward momentum of the mass of water transferred from one molecule to the next. If you have ridden many bigger waves then you would know there is a situation that happens where you start to drop down a wave but suddenly the force of the wave standing up makes the water on the face of the wave go upward and it pulls you back over the top of the wave making you miss it entirely even though you already are on a steep incline and have some momentum from dropping down the face 10 or 15 feet. I know you don't think water goes up the face but it does. It's complicated. If the surfer pushing on the deck makes forward momentum why do you sink when you leave the wave? It's not the surfer it's the wave interacting with the planning surface of the surfboard. You can also fall down the face of a wave with just gravity however that doesn't make you go down the line..

That's helpful. Thanks.
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Re: Surfing an old nose riding board

Postby RinkyDink » Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:34 pm

RinkyDink wrote:I think my understanding of a wave's "push" is a little different


I was grabbing the following link for a friend who is learning to surf and thought he had some good analysis at 1:25.

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Re: Surfing an old nose riding board

Postby oldmansurfer » Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:44 pm

He ignores that a wave is a wave and not standing in one place the mass is moving forward. Say you drop down a wave gravity makes you go to the bottom. Then what? Gravity isn't going to move you anymore. The wave will catch up with you and push your tail up. If that isn't a push then what is? Now beginners will just pearl or fall down but more experienced surfers will start moving forward again. It's a complex thing. Not just gravity.
So what is worse.... dying or regretting it for the rest of my life? Obviously I chose not regretting it.
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Re: Surfing an old nose riding board

Postby RinkyDink » Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:57 pm

oldmansurfer wrote:He ignores that a wave is a wave and not standing in one place the mass is moving forward. Say you drop down a wave gravity makes you go to the bottom. Then what? Gravity isn't going to move you anymore. The wave will catch up with you and push your tail up. If that isn't a push then what is? Now beginners will just pearl or fall down but more experienced surfers will start moving forward again. It's a complex thing. Not just gravity.


The wave that catches up to a surfer in the trough will push that surfer up, but not forward toward the shore with any power that mattered to the surfer's speed. That's basically my point. I could attach a playground slide to a platform on wheels. Now I could move the whole platform forward while kids were on it and climbing up the slide and sliding back down it as the whole platform moved forward. The whole platform moving forward isn't going to affect the speed of the kids going down the slope of the slide very much. I used the same conception to understand waves, but interpreting the particulars of a wave (rightly or wrongly) isn't going to really make much difference regarding tail rocker so I think we're getting too far afield. We agree, I think, but are just using different vocabulary.
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Re: Surfing an old nose riding board

Postby oldmansurfer » Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:37 pm

But the moving slide will push people along also if they are standing stationary on it as will a wave as long as they have forward momentum to keep from having the slide pass them by.
So what is worse.... dying or regretting it for the rest of my life? Obviously I chose not regretting it.
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Re: Surfing an old nose riding board

Postby tomthetreeman » Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:34 pm

You guys are making my head hurt lol.
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Re: Surfing an old nose riding board

Postby RinkyDink » Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:06 am

oldmansurfer wrote:But the moving slide will push people along also if they are standing stationary on it as will a wave as long as they have forward momentum to keep from having the slide pass them by.


All of this stuff is verifiable in the surf. Go out and observe what's going on in surf. If you feel a push and I feel a slide, but we're both still ripping, then more power to us :D As long our interpretations of the ocean allows us to surf, stay safe, and pull off maneuvers, then the veracity of our interpretations are irrelevant.
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Re: Surfing an old nose riding board

Postby RinkyDink » Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:08 am

tomthetreeman wrote:You guys are making my head hurt lol.


All this typing is making my hand hurt :lol:
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Re: Surfing an old nose riding board

Postby jaffa1949 » Wed Dec 12, 2018 10:32 am

Just go surfing! :woot:
I've taken up troll hunting just for fun, instead of a rifle I'll just use a pun! 冲浪爷爷
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