Paddling into waves, getting hung up and board design

[Wavedrool]

So heres a question for you guys. What is it about one board that makes it so much easier to paddle into waves than a different board?

I always thought that larger thicker wider boards paddle in easier, but after taking out several boards in the same conditions i found some interesting results. The boards range from a 10' log to a 5'10 groveler. 78L down to 32 L. I'm 180lbs. Im going to list the boards from easiest to hardest to paddle into waves (ie getting hung up at the ledge)

--Easiest to paddle in--
40L Santa Cruz Pumpkin Seed 6'8 x 20.5 x 2.6 (this thing is old skool, long and narrow, paddles fast, hard to miss waves)
32L Eric Arakawa Barracuda 6,4 x 20 x.2.4 ( This thing gets picked up so easily, lowest vol board, but paddles in like mad, sometimes ill stop paddling and back off and it gets picked up anyways!)
37L Lost Short round 6'1x21x2.6
78L 10' x24x3 log
56L firewire sweet potato 6'2x23x3.25 (too much volume?)
43L HyptoKrypto 6'4x21x3
37L Ellipical Groveller 5'10x21.5x2.75(this thing gets hung up like crazy, paddles slow and seems to plow in chop)
60L Bic 9' x22x2.75 longboard (seems like way too much entry rocker, i swear it plows in the front)
--most difficult to paddle in--
Are the lower volume boards getting me deeper in the face and therefore easier to tip forward into waves? Or is it the old skool design on the EA and the Santa Cruz that make them paddle better than the newer stubbier boards? I have to admit that the two easiest boards are also made by really awesome shapers, Doug Haut and Eric Arakawa. and I wonder if their experience with rocker and rails and understanding of waterflow just make these way better boards as a whole. But they also have a more performance shape, thinner rails and narrower.

Any thoughts on this?

[oldmansurfer]

So drag and weight make it more difficult to paddle. a lighter board with less drag is easier to paddle. Most likely the greatest amount of drag comes from what is called profile drag. That is the profile of the board that needs to be pushed through the water. This only involves the part of the board below the water line as you lay on it. For most boards you can get an idea by holding the nose of the board at eye level and looking toward the tail. So fatter or wider boards with more rocker especially nose rocker have greater profile drag. Note that longer boards don't have greater profile drag so two boards of equal volume but one longer and narrower will paddle better even though it is the same volume. Those shorter high volume boards need less rocker to paddle better because they can't help but be thick and wide but narrower thinner boards will have less profile drag. There is drag related to how you are positioned on the board which can also be called I guess profile drag because if you paddle with the nose up in the air it creates a greater profile drag and flat bottom no rocker board change profile drag much more with positioning as opposed to rockered boards.

[waikikikichan]

Was the data compiled with all the boards on the same day ? At the very exact same break, under the same tide, same wind, same stamina ?

You are on to something, that it IS NOT just about Volume. Rocker, Rail, Outline means more But you also have to consider the right vehicle for the right terrain. Among all the boards listed, the 9’0 - 10’0” would fare best ........... at Waikiki.

[oldmansurfer]

As far as getting push from the wave a wider tail gets more push from the wave. There are also other things such as glide or how well the board keeps going after you quit paddling and longer heavier boards have more glide. Hey yeah board design is complex. I don't think anyone knows everything there is to board design.

[RinkyDink]

So heres a question for you guys. What is it about one board that makes it so much easier to paddle into waves than a different board?

I always thought that larger thicker wider boards paddle in easier, but after taking out several boards in the same conditions i found some interesting results. The boards range from a 10' log to a 5'10 groveler. 78L down to 32 L. I'm 180lbs. Im going to list the boards from easiest to hardest to paddle into waves (ie getting hung up at the ledge)

That's a complicated question. I think it comes down to a combination of things: rocker, length, width, volume, board weight (glass job, epoxy vs. PU, etc.), position of the rider on the board, weight of the surfer, water surface conditions, and probably a bunch of other factors. I was out the other day and saw this completely exhausted beginner paddling to keep up with his girlfriend. The nose of his board was poking out of the water at like a 45 degree angle. He was paddling, but not really going anywhere. He was a bigger guy so he was kind of weighing down the back of the board. I felt sorry for him because his face was all red and he was clearly tired. I wanted to tell him to move forward on his board so it was flatter on the water, but I didn't want to embarrass him with his girlfriend. Anyway, each board has its paddling sweet spot and with some boards it can take a little bit of time to find it.

[Big H]

I'm not buying it.....like WKK said different waves on different days are.............different. I have a lot of boards, different lengths and volumes and here's my take. Short low volume boards can catch every wave you paddle for just like a longboard IF you position yourself correctly. It isn't hard to paddle in and catch a wave if you are in the right spot no matter what board you are on. Shortboards you're more inside; position correctly and it is only a couple paddles before you're in because the wave is powerful and about to break. My 10'4" longboard will catch waves much earlier....I can sit outside of where I catch on a lower volumed short board and still get in.........HOWEVER, is it easier? What is easy? I paddle for a wave and catch it......I position myself in accordance to the waves of the day and the board I am on. Talking about how easy it is to catch a wave is beginner talk; time to move on now to taking the catch for granted and talking now about what you do once on the wave.

[dtc]

I wanted to tell him to move forward on his board so it was flatter on the water, but I didn't want to embarrass him with his girlfriend.

You can always say 'do you mind if I give you one tip'

For me, I found that the key design features are nose rocker and tail size. Big rocker and narrow tail makes its harder. Wide tail means you can catch almost anything, but can be hard to control.

But other factors come into play depending on what is happening - in windy or choppy conditions, a narrower nose is easier to paddle than a wide nose. As Big H says, positioning is more important than paddling; but paddling can overcome bad positioning. So if you are in the right place, then its easy to catch waves. If you are in the wrong place, then an easy to paddle board lets you catch waves. On small waves you can catch with a smaller board, but it might be harder to do much after that. etc

So...absolutely there are boards that are easier to catch waves than other boards. But I dont think there is any single variable that creates that outcome, as it depends on too many inputs.

[oldmansurfer]

Just think about a 2" x 4" x 6' peice of wood basically a 6 foot piece of two by four. Place it in a pool of water and align it with the 4 inch part horizontal. Then push it from the 2"x 4" side and it will go much further than if you try to push it from the 2'x6 foot side that is because you are pushing a 6 foot by 2" wall of water in front of it. That is profile drag. Now then create a rocker to alleviate some of that push and you get even better performance but the blunter the rocker the more water you push in front of the board so a tapering rocker is better than a big nose kick rocker. Some rocker is needed or we would all be riding flat boards. The nose rocker though only affects early paddling on the wave because the rocker is out of the water after you get some speed up. Now then add in concaves and channels and you might create lift that makes taking off easier also. Anyway it is very complex. Be happy you have a board that is easy to catch waves on.

[RinkyDink]

I wanted to tell him to move forward on his board so it was flatter on the water, but I didn't want to embarrass him with his girlfriend.

You can always say 'do you mind if I give you one tip'

I almost did, but he was already getting an earful of advice from his GF so I left him in peace. I don't think he was listening to much advice anyway. Probably best for the rest of us if he takes up skydiving instead.

[saltydog]

Type and the quality of the wave and the rider's position affect the ability to catch almost as much as the board design. When it's flat, it's just so much work in terms of both wave reading skills and the pure muscle power to not get hung up even on a low rocker log.

[Wavedrool]

Thanks for all the input! Yeah i realize talking about catching is a nube topic and i dont generally have any issues catching anything, its more a question of why so much effort required with some boards and others almost none. Of why certain board designs almost have that magic feeling of hopping onto a plane under your chest with almost no effort while the others take considerable effort. In regards to finding the sweet spot and that all boards have one, perhaps the issue is that some sweet spots are harder to find and smaller. I totally get the drag idea, having paddled very short round kayaks, canoes and paddleboards and long narrow ones, I can see how the 6'8 pumpkin seed would paddle much easier than a sweet potato or any other short fat groveler.

Did I try all these boards on the same day, tide, size, etc....nope. But i have surfed all of them a ton in all sorts of conditions. for example I've surfed the 10'r in pitchy 7' and the 32 litre Arakawa in 3-4' mush. (dont ask why, haha its a long walk to check the conditions, lol) Of course they all have their time and place, but overall the pumpkin seed and the Arakawa just seem to have this different feel to them. As i paddle and I can feel the wave hit my feet and lift I can feel the area under my chest lift and start to plane with a couple of lazy strokes, i am always surprised and think, man this thing defies the laws of physics, it wants into this wave more than i do. whereas the wider nose boards have more of a plowing feeling under the chest that seems to need to be overcome with a more frantic sprint to overcome the plowing and force it to tip (break the ledge) and drop in. One thing in common with these two boards is the noses are much narrower than the newer grovelers. I guess there is'nt any one particular reason, but it feels like less plowing and a rocker under the chest that just "wants" to go. I ask because I want these attributes in future boards, but i am not sure what they are.

[oldmansurfer]

each board has characteristics. The ones that feel good to you are ones that match your skill set. The other boards are ones that you don't have the skills for. Board design is a complex thing, part art, part science. There are too many factors that go into how well a board works. These factors can be divided into three groups: variation in board design, variation in board riding skill, variation in the waves. Each of those three categories have nearly endless possibilities.

[Big H]

I can't tell you why one works better than another for you.....I buy used boards almost exclusively and if they work I keep them....if they work better than another board I sell the one that's the new dog......volume, length and design can give clues as to what might work better, but in the end yes it's true, some boards work better for a given person under certain conditions than others. I've tried dozens and have a decent idea now of what I want under me under various conditions. Specs are only part of the story; I've had boards with nearly identical specs where one was better for me than the other. But in the end, while each board has it's differences and peculiarities, they aren't too far away from each other and the x factor and common denominator is and will always be just ME.

[RinkyDink]

I ask because I want these attributes in future boards, but i am not sure what they are.

Join the club I have endless questions about surfboard designs. Surfing is such a complex sport that you'll often find, even with the most knowledgeable surfers, that people don't have answers for you. Or often they'll just give you the boilerplate answer. One of the funnest aspects of surfing is figuring out the answers to the puzzles the sport inevitably throws at you. I think the people who stick with the sport are the ones who never tire of trying to work out the answers. There are things you like about your Pumpkin Seed board. What are they? Start making a list of surfboard characteristics you like so you can develop an awareness of what works for you. If you're not sure of what the things are you like about your board, then start comparing it with your other boards. What are the differences between two boards that you think make one board magical and the other just meh?

The first characteristic about a surfboard that made my favored list of attributes was weight; I like my boards light. I prefer epoxy boards because of their weight and durability. I like thin rails for my bottom turns. I like to have a flatter rocker on certain types of waves. With other wave types my list of favored attributes changes. If I'm in the 2-3 foot range of waves, then I like riding my longboard. There are a whole set of characteristics I've got listed for my longboard. Since your interest is focused on the paddling characteristics of a board, you should focus your attention on what particularities in a surfboard's design affects how it paddles (buoyancy, nose and tail rocker, width, etc.). You might have a board that paddles like crap, but it might be just what you need for hollow pitching overhead A-frame waves. Then again, you may never see hollow pitching A-frame waves at your spot, so you might want to list what characteristics work at your surf spot. Anyway, good luck.

[oldmansurfer]

There is a book titled "The Surfboard Book : How design drives performance" by Sean McCagh. It goes into what is known about design. However there is a lot that isn't known. Pro surfers often have a magic board, one that works really well for them. You might think the shaper who made the board can make them another but in reality they may already have copies of the board but still there is something about that one board that is different even though design wise they are exact duplicates.

[RinkyDink]

There is a book titled "The Surfboard Book : How design drives performance" by Sean McCagh. It goes into what is known about design. However there is a lot that isn't known. Pro surfers often have a magic board, one that works really well for them. You might think the shaper who made the board can make them another but in reality they may already have copies of the board but still there is something about that one board that is different even though design wise they are exact duplicates.

That looks like a cool book. Did you readi it? Does it explain the basics well? Is it worth buying or does it simply repeat information that is already online? Does it drill down into its topics with a lot of depth? Let me know because I might buy it.

[oldmansurfer]

There is a book titled "The Surfboard Book : How design drives performance" by Sean McCagh. It goes into what is known about design. However there is a lot that isn't known. Pro surfers often have a magic board, one that works really well for them. You might think the shaper who made the board can make them another but in reality they may already have copies of the board but still there is something about that one board that is different even though design wise they are exact duplicates.

That looks like a cool book. Did you readi it? Does it explain the basics well? Is it worth buying or does it simply repeat information that is already online? Does it drill down into its topics with a lot of depth? Let me know because I might buy it.

Yes I read it not that I can recall everything in it though. It just basically breaks down what the effect of various designs are and how they affect the way the board works but not necessarily all put together so just this tail or that tail design does this or that but not this tail with this concave and this rocker and these rails means the board will work this way (it doesn't do that). That is where I get the "profile drag" from. It's likely that the information is mostly available online but convenient in a book.

[waikikikichan]

I ask because I want these attributes in future boards, but i am not sure what they are.

We all want the "Magic" board/shape. Easy to paddle, easy to catch, easy to turn and Fast ( and for some people, cheap and strong ). But you have to look as the board as a whole, not just entry rocker or V.

I once tried 4 difference boards from a shaper who made boards for a Champion surfer. Just couldn't get the right feeling out of all of them, so i went back to my other shaper. You like the Eric Arakawa boards you rode. Arakawa is a great shaper. But the last two "Stab in the dark" competitions went to Pyzel ( and world champion John John Florence ride them ), so does that make Arakawa's shapes more inferior compared to Pyzel's ??
I can tell you this, you can order 10 boards in the exact model, shape, dimensions, glassing, etc. and EACH board will paddle and ride differently. The shaping might be spot on in each, but the glasser or the sander can "change" the shape ever so slightly.

If you want to dial in the type of boards for your style and preference, you have to work with a shaper. It like a relationship where he gets to know you and you learn about him. It might not be perfect the first time, but few boards down the line, he'll get it closer and closer to want you want ( if you give him the right feed back ). But if you not even clean with your pop ups and bottom turns, I would waste time bothering a shaper.