Top turn carve

[IanCaio]

Heey fellow surfers!

Swell hit the coast yesterday: I thought it was still coming when I got surprised by some gnarling conditions. Offshore wind, 3-5ft hawaiian. Paddled out, in the first 10 minutes I saw a dude score a tube right next to me! Later I saw another score a even bigger one from the sand. Tried to drop two or three waves, but the offshore wind was making it harder to get on it, and then lightning started. I went out of the water and waited for it to stop. Maybe I waited too much, once I got back inside it was smaller and crowded. I was not really finding myself in the water, getting my arm a bit exhausted from paddling, and current was dragging me to the rocks, so I went out of that day that showed so many good waves scoring nothing but some in the head .

Today I went dawn patrol with some friends. Waves were smaller but still good, about 2ft hawaiian. This time I could score a few! I took my camera out, and though I didn't record my best waves, there was this one where I did my best top turn carve of the day (like a less sharpen snap? I always get confused with the naming). It threw a little bit of spray, nothing spectacular, but good for my standards

I'm posting the video (nevermind the fog, still didn't work this issue out) of it real time and in slow motion, if you notice something I can do to improve it, I'll be glad to hear it!

Now I gotta rest and get ready for some reinforced dinner, my arms feels like I've been doing push ups for the last 20 hours..

[oldmansurfer]

Well based on your arm movement it looks like maybe you were off balance? It's hard to tell from the on board video. My suggestion is practice some more I don't know what to tell you but often learning to do stuff surfing is about practicing it over and over which means waiting for the waves that will allow you to do whatever maneuver you are practicing. This is why learning is so much quicker if you spend more time surfing.

[oldmansurfer]

One other thing is try to go straight into a bottom turn from the snap so you have a chance to make the next section. It's hard to tell from the on board video but it looks like you just kind of stayed high on the wave and got caught by the section. I probably would have tried to make a hard bottom turn around the section or go down and straight back up again to hit off it. I think the other guys who are more familiar with gopro videos might be able to read it all better than me.

[oldmansurfer]

So anyway no one is responding so I will also say when you do a snap the immediate moment after it should be heavy pressure on your front foot to keep speed through the turn. I can't tell from the video if you are doing this or not just throwing this out there for your consideration.

[IanCaio]

Hey OMS, thanks for the feedback!

The section closed a bit fast in front of me, not sure if I delayed it too much on the snap or if the wave was just closing out in the next section. I remember some waves were opening some good lines but some were either closing out or opening a quick section and then closing.

When I did the snap, I didn't feel much off-balance (as I felt in some other tries), but looking at my arms and torso I think maybe I should have projected a bit more and waited a little more before turning back down the face?

What I did try that day was to make the snap closer to the lip, so I could go back down with speed . Seemed to work way better, because so far I think I was starting the carve too early.

[oldmansurfer]

It's hard for me to tell what the wave is doing from the gopro view. It's also hard to tell what you are doing in relation to the wave. The greatest amount of speed from a turn is if you go from tip top to bottom with projection and no waiting so on the bottom turn you are leaning forward and up the wave toward where you want to hit the lip. Then you project out of that turn and hit the lip while leaning forward and back down the wave where you want to go. Hitting the lip helps because it adds force back down the wave. but the projection is up and forward to the top turn and down and forward to the bottom turn. Hit the lip and immediately push the front foot to get the board down the wave and don't go into the flats at the bottom.

[waikikikichan]

Both arms are way in front of the body, so the butts sticks/leans out to counter balance. No twist at the moment and not much engagement of the inside rail

Front arms swing towards the face, but with palm down, the shoulder pointed away from the wave, not towards it.
Back arm is counter balancing ( acting more like a outrigger stabilizer ), not coming across the chest to aid in twisting the torso

after the top "apex", you swing the front arm the other way, but the elbow is leading the momentum ( **baseball analogy later )

Then something strange happens..... The board should be coming down counter clockwise, but your front arms swings back up clockwise, which goes against the action.

The back hand follow that violent swing of the front arm clockwise. The upper body slam forward to over the knees. Eyes/head - body - arms are all going in different places.

Baseball analogy- Hold a ball or apple in your right hand ( palm up knuckles down ) arms length out in front of you. Bring it all the way back rotating clockwise. At a certain point your shoulder will roll back if your hand cant go back any further ( even your back will bend back ). Stop and return back to the original position.

Now, roll the hand over so the ball or apple is down ( palm down knuckles up ). Rotate the ball around with it still facing down. At a certain point the shoulder will roll forward and the neck and head will drop.

When doing a top turn, you want to OPEN the shoulder and chest to the wave. Especially important when going backside when you're not facing the wave. Your photos shows more of a CLOSED position.

[YungGrom]

To reduce the fog lick the go pro before you paddle for a wave.

[waikikikichan]

I think licking the lens, is more to prevent water spots. The "fog" that is happening is probably condensation build up on the INSIDE of housing. A GoPro constantly on creates a lot of heat. Need to get Anti-Fog inserts.

[IanCaio]

Baseball analogy- Hold a ball or apple in your right hand ( palm up knuckles down ) arms length out in front of you. Bring it all the way back rotating clockwise. At a certain point your shoulder will roll back if your hand cant go back any further ( even your back will bend back ). Stop and return back to the original position.

Now, roll the hand over so the ball or apple is down ( palm down knuckles up ). Rotate the ball around with it still facing down. At a certain point the shoulder will roll forward and the neck and head will drop.

When doing a top turn, you want to OPEN the shoulder and chest to the wave. Especially important when going backside when you're not facing the wave. Your photos shows more of a CLOSED position.

Thanks a lot Waikikikichan! That was a very illustrative breakdown, thanks for taking the time to do it
I'm sorry it took me a while to respond, I read it yesterday when I was back from work but had no time to write back.

I tried the arm rotation, with palms down and palms up, and as you said huge difference on how the torso and shoulders move. Then I tried to look at some videos from the pros snapping and they seem to do it with the palms up, and also to throw the arms from above their head back down on the lip. I also noticed that really weird movement I did on the end of the carve, where my arms swing the opposite way, and can't really understand what was going on there. Probably lost a lot of momentum doing it.

I think maybe I'm playing safe being a bit afraid to lose the wave on the trick (either falling or letting the wave pass by). That would explain the sudden swing at the end, I could be trying to counter the momentum I built. I think I've to take my chances more if I want to do a powerful snap.
It could also be just some unconscious reaction trying to keep balance.

Tomorrow morning there might be some waves (I don't think they will have much size and power though). If I manage to wake up early, I'll try to surf a little and put those tips you gave me to action, starting with facing my palms up on the bottom turn/beginning of the snap, opening my shoulders and using the back hand to help turning my torso!

To reduce the fog lick the go pro before you paddle for a wave.

I think licking the lens, is more to prevent water spots. The "fog" that is happening is probably condensation build up on the INSIDE of housing. A GoPro constantly on creates a lot of heat. Need to get Anti-Fog inserts.

Yeah, the fog is inside the housing, don't think licking it will help much. I need to either get the anti-fog inserts or do my own (I have a silica packet, if only I could break those silica spheres I could get them inside an envelope in the housing). I heard detergent can help avoid the fog building.

[Brian]

Great breakdown waikiki, I always appreciate your analysis with pictures.

[dtc]

I think maybe I'm playing safe being a bit afraid to lose the wave on the trick (either falling or letting the wave pass by). .....

I heard detergent can help avoid the fog building.

I was listening to an interview with the main guy from Surf Simply (Ru Hill) recently ('surf mastery podcast' - interviewer isnt great but the guest are). Anyway, he said almost the no 1 issue with learning to progress is people being too scared to lose the wave, and so they play really conservatively. We have all done it/do it.

Anyway, his suggestion was to divide your session up and have, say, 20 minutes where you just do a particular thing eg he was talking about doing a 90 degree bottom turn where you head straight up the face. Now most people learning this turn can't to the necessary top turn/snap at the top of the wave, so they end up just going straight over the back and 'wasting' the wave. But he says, for 20 minutes, just do it and go over the back if that is what is required. Then spend the rest of the session catching waves. Otherwise you will just never learn the turn because you will never do it.

obviously if you are fighting crowds and catching 3 waves an hour this isnt great advice - but on the right day its worth it. A variation is to do your 'trick' almost at the end of the wave if feasible eg do a top turn right at the end, even if you fall then you havent 'wasted' the wave. Or pull into a short wave and do a turn - the wave wasnt going to offer much anyway

Detergent does avoid the fog. Baby shampoo is a safe version because it doesnt have any significant 'nasties'; but most detergent is ok and you arent sticking the lens next to your eye. Fogging is condensation caused by differential temperatures eg if you take your camera out of a cool house into warm water., or from a warm house to cold water. One solution is to let your gear acclimatize to the temperature slowly, if you have time (eg take the camera out and leave out while you are dressing etc). detergent leaves a layer of transparent film on the surface and prevents that 'hot hitting cold' thing. toothpaste also works, if you want it to smell nice

[IanCaio]

he said almost the no 1 issue with learning to progress is people being too scared to lose the wave, and so they play really conservatively. We have all done it/do it.

Anyway, his suggestion was to divide your session up and have, say, 20 minutes where you just do a particular thing eg he was talking about doing a 90 degree bottom turn where you head straight up the face. Now most people learning this turn can't to the necessary top turn/snap at the top of the wave, so they end up just going straight over the back and 'wasting' the wave. But he says, for 20 minutes, just do it and go over the back if that is what is required. Then spend the rest of the session catching waves. Otherwise you will just never learn the turn because you will never do it.

That sounds like a good strategy! I'll try doing that on my sessions

I went out today and waves weren't great, so every couple waves I'd try to do some more intense turn, really putting power on my torso, or doing something different. I didn't have much success today though, waves were a bit weak (which is not much of an excuse since some better surfers were slamming the lips hard). The last wave was backside and there was a great opportunity for a nice snap, but I didn't quite made it. Had to be quicker on the bottom turn, ended up taking too long and going up the face in an angle instead of almost straight up. Then didn't handle turning quick enough back down, so I got passed by the wave.

Oh, and I broke the piece that holds the GoPro in place today in a wipeout!
No videos for a while now

[oldmansurfer]

well at least you didn't lose the gopro

[IanCaio]

Well, it's been an year since I posted this. I'm managing to do top turn carves way more frequently now, but I think I'm still noticing some of the mistakes mentioned here. I got some GoPro footage from not long ago (maybe a month), where I hit the lip twice:

I've a little bit more footage from that day, but this one doesn't have any fog on it. So, what I noticed from it in comparison with the old one:

Pros:

• Apparently I'm engaging the inside rail more (though I think the wave being a bit steeper helped a lot on this one)

• The torso and arms movement are enhanced, giving a little bit more momentum to the carve

• I'm being more consistent on doing the turns, maybe because of better wave reading?

Cons:

• My leading hand still isn't pointing upwards (for some reason I thought I had this improved, but apparently I need to go back to focusing on it)

• I'm still doing that odd arm turn against the carve, not sure why. I was wondering if maybe the board isn't coming down as fast as myself, so I feel like I need to go back to regain balance?

So, what do you guys think? I was noticing last couple of days, that if I slide my back foot a bit closer to the tail I get a faster response on the carve. Been trying to do that to see if I spot some difference, because I was thinking maybe that was the reason for the odd arm swing: Maybe I'm stepping the back foot a bit forward and because of that the board isn't coming back as fast as it was supposed to. Just a theory..

Besides any feedback, if you were to tell me to focus on one thing to change during the carves, what would it be? (I think it's easier to work on an issue at a time, so maybe if you notice the most critical thing to change, I could spend the sessions trying to focus on it).

Thanks again!

[oldmansurfer]

I take it you aren't liking what the board is doing? It looks like you are doing ok. Not sure if the gopro is showing things well but here is my comments. What I like is to do more vertical smacks so that means I have to commit more to the bottom turn first to get speed and lateral projection (down the line) then do a separate turn up the face to smack the lip and come straight back down. So that would be my suggestion to drop more straight down then go sideways and then turn up and straight back down. I say straight but it's probably not entirely straight but more so than you are doing. I love the feeling of being on a fast wave and hitting the lip and dropping straight down the face then carving a good bottom turn and doing it again. I used to ride waves that I could do 4 or 5 off the lips on the same wave. After a while it gets boring and I would do other turns but at least one wave a day all off the lips . Now I surf waves that don't allow me those opportunities often so if I get two on a wave I am so happy.

[IanCaio]

Hey OMS! Sorry for the delayed answer, I've been having issues with my internet since last week..

Yeah, that's something I want to work on definitely, getting more vertical. I've very limited footage of myself surfing, so I don't really know how vertical I've been hitting the lip, and that GoPro angle doesn't help. I was photographed last week and there was a 3 photo sequence of a top turn carve, but I hit the lip kind of sideways. The section didn't seem like the kind of section you could go much vertical, so I don't really think it was a bad call to hit it with a lower angle. But there are some things I noticed in the pictures: My arms were a bit too stretched and my back leg didn't go straight in the end of the carve to throw more spray.

Last sessions I've been trying to work on my back foot positioning on the carves, getting it really far behind in the deck, and it seemed to help a lot. I guess I'll keep on working on small details and see how they help!

[Big H]

Those pics and that set up turn and you face position is perfect for a cutback.

[oldmansurfer]

I think worrying about where you arms and head are is putting the apple before the cart. First learn to make the board do what you want it to then improve on that by getting your arms and head in the right place. Arms are just an ancillary thing and much more important is what your lower body and the board is doing. If what you want is to throw more spray you need to put more power in the turn with your legs crouch into the turn and extend out and really you need a better bottom turn. The bottom turn adds to the power you have going into the top turn. On the wave above you aren't getting any power from the bottom turn it's just a quick turn up. So I would say you need to commit to a stronger more vertical bottom turn as in drop down more pointing toward the beach and jam a hard turn. This will give you the speed you need to push hard off the top of the wave in a carving turn. then worry about your arms and head and stuff.

[oldmansurfer]

The cart before the horse LOL