Etiquette....Here's a gray area to rule on....feedback?

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Re: Etiquette....Here's a gray area to rule on....feedback?

Postby waikikikichan » Tue Oct 20, 2015 11:35 am

I think that one of the points, it's not Rules, but the Manners. A longboarder can usually sit further out than the shortboarders. He has the ability to catch anything that comes thru. Or a advance surfer among a pack of Beginner-Intermediates can probably out stroke or out position everyone else. But "just because You Can, doesn't mean You Should". That where etiquette comes into play. Give a wave, Get a wave. Give respect, Get respect. Act like a butt-head, get treated as such.

( now if we could get that message thru to the Stand-Up Paddle boarders ........... )
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Re: Etiquette....Here's a gray area to rule on....feedback?

Postby Big H » Tue Oct 20, 2015 11:37 am

waikikikichan wrote:( now if we could get that message thru to the Stand-Up Paddle boarders ........... )

Hahahaha.....those guys are pigs!!!!
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Re: Etiquette....Here's a gray area to rule on....feedback?

Postby jaffa1949 » Tue Oct 20, 2015 11:57 am

Had a stand up paddle guy paddle up next to me in a good medium surf .
His opening comment was "I've had a a half hour lesson, I'm entitled to be out here!!"
WTF on that!
The small crowd gave him a wide berth, and laughed and made in his face rude comments about every wipeout he was entitled to!
15 minutes was all the humiliation he could manage! :lol:
Manners would have meant he surfed in a surf that matched his ability.
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Re: Etiquette....Here's a gray area to rule on....feedback?

Postby Tudeo » Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:18 pm

waikikikichan wrote:Give a wave, Get a wave. Give respect, Get respect


It pains me to say, I haven't seen much giving in the Bali lineups. It's not uncommon here to have 50 surfers chasing the same waves, chaos as a result..
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Re: Etiquette....Here's a gray area to rule on....feedback?

Postby Big H » Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:31 pm

jaffa1949 wrote:Had a stand up paddle guy paddle up next to me in a good medium surf .
His opening comment was "I've had a a half hour lesson, I'm entitled to be out here!!"
WTF on that!
The small crowd gave him a wide berth, and laughed and made in his face rude comments about every wipeout he was entitled to!
15 minutes was all the humiliation he could manage! :lol:
Manners would have meant he surfed in a surf that matched his ability.

I don't know which is worse....that guy or the one that is a Laird Hamilton clone....there were two guys at Seminyak about a month ago, catching ripples way past even the longboards and staying with the waves while pumping the paddle so that they were taking waves basically before they were waves....and they did it as fast and as often as they could, seemed like there was one guy on every wave....I was 150 - 200m down on the next peak and thought it amusing and perturbing at the same time.....


I'm not even going to talk about sea kayak guy in the lineup the other day........ :blah: :blah: :blah:
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Re: Etiquette....Here's a gray area to rule on....feedback?

Postby waikikikichan » Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:42 pm

Tudeo, Yeah in a hand full of common ground surfers, manners and etiquette can be used. But 50 on a wave, it's Darwin's law, only the strong survive ( or the ones that threaten to snap you neck ). I came from surfing Waikiki , with tourist on 11 foot tankers who've never seen the ocean before. Now I surf in Japan with 20 people paddling for a wave and a 30 person wall of newbie standing waist deep waiting to jump onto their boards to catch the wave. So I can imagine Bali with powerful waves, pointy boards .

That's why the golden rule gets thrown out the door, when it's a mad house, and every man for themselves.
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Re: Etiquette....Here's a gray area to rule on....feedback?

Postby Tudeo » Tue Oct 20, 2015 1:00 pm

waikikikichan wrote:That's why the golden rule gets thrown out the door, when it's a mad house, and every man for themselves.


Surf tourism is only growing here, many new development projects at the surf spots, so about all the known spots u find in books and websites are getting more and more unsurfable because of crazy crowds. It's unfortunate but it is what it is.

There are still some uncrowded waves to be found if u put in the time to search for it, ...or pay a local surfguide to bring u there.... :yearght:
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Re: Etiquette....Here's a gray area to rule on....feedback?

Postby oldmansurfer » Tue Oct 20, 2015 5:30 pm

Often it seems that locals feel they are entitled to waves and feel free to drop in on anyone. It seems to me that they usually drop in on surfers who aren't very good like the guy who paddles and almost never takes off but at some popular places like pipeline they may drop in on pro surfers who don't meet whatever requirements they have for giving respect to the other surfers there. All this dialog makes me happy I don't surf a crowded break ....it's so peaceful and relaxing and fun when I surf.
So what is worse.... dying or regretting it for the rest of my life? Obviously I chose not regretting it.
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Re: Etiquette....Here's a gray area to rule on....feedback?

Postby Tudeo » Wed Oct 21, 2015 3:14 am

oldmansurfer wrote:All this dialog makes me happy I don't surf a crowded break ....it's so peaceful and relaxing and fun when I surf.

I'm with u OMS, I very much prefer a lesser quality but uncrowded wave over the bad vibes that surround the well known good waves. But most I like my top quality, still uncrowded, secret discoveries :lol:
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Re: Etiquette....Here's a gray area to rule on....feedback?

Postby Tudeo » Wed Oct 21, 2015 3:48 am

waikikikichan wrote:I think that one of the points, it's not Rules, but the Manners.

Ur right ofcourse, and it do makes a difference to look at it as good manners instead of rules. It's a more soft way of looking at things that can help reduce some of the irritations u feel at the wrongdoers.

The other day I got very angry at a guy for paddling in front of me so I had to abort the wave I was riding for the second time. This guy, sitting more inside, had all the time to paddle behind me and let me surf the wave. He was on a shortboard and catching some, so not a complete beginner. Still paddling like crazy to avoid the white water and so blocking my way.

He apologized but I shouted angrily at him: "paddle behind me!". All he could say was: "I said I was sorry", in a somewhat shocked way. When I paddled back into position I realised I shouldn't have reacted that strong, and I turned to the guy to apologize in turn for my angry response. The guy understood it was just the blur of the moment, and a little later we had a laugh about it. No bad vibes remained.
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Re: Etiquette....Here's a gray area to rule on....feedback?

Postby Big H » Wed Oct 21, 2015 5:16 am

oldmansurfer wrote:Often it seems that locals feel they are entitled to waves and feel free to drop in on anyone. It seems to me that they usually drop in on surfers who aren't very good like the guy who paddles and almost never takes off but at some popular places like pipeline they may drop in on pro surfers who don't meet whatever requirements they have for giving respect to the other surfers there. All this dialog makes me happy I don't surf a crowded break ....it's so peaceful and relaxing and fun when I surf.

Sometimes I'm in the mood to chill, other times I will go fight for my place at a crowded spot...but I won't shy away if I'm in the mood....the crowds follow the best waves and I keep practicing, learning and improving both in actual surfing as well as holding it down in the lineup so I get my fair share....that has been my goal since I started, to be able to go out on most days to most breaks around here and hold my place in a lineup and get/take my waves competently....like W-chan said, Darwinism applies and I'm doing my best to learn to not just survive but to thrive in spite of the mobs....
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Re: Etiquette....Here's a gray area to rule on....feedback?

Postby oldmansurfer » Wed Oct 21, 2015 5:34 am

I am not speaking about you but what I have seen and heard about in Hawaii. I don't surf crowded break but have run into a few guys who acted like they felt entitled to the waves, oddly enough there were no real issues just attitude. Also oddly I knew some of them fairly well and never had any issues with them in the past. Most of the time only me and them out so I was so confused to get that attitude because waves were abundant and it wasn't like we would even see each other very often much less try for the same waves. Other stuff I have heard from people who surfed pipeline.
So what is worse.... dying or regretting it for the rest of my life? Obviously I chose not regretting it.
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Re: Etiquette....Here's a gray area to rule on....feedback?

Postby oldmansurfer » Wed Oct 21, 2015 5:53 am

I wrote a piece about all the aggression I ran into surfing in all my years of surfing other than the bit I wrote about above and copied and pasted it here.....
I went looking for surf one day and ended up driving to Waimea looking. I drove by a spot called Davisons and it was the best that I saw so far and no one was out so I went out. I was out there surfing when 2 carloads of guys drive up and one guy paddles out. The guy it turns out was a friend of mine sort of. His parents and mine were good friends. He asks me "Eh You "Olmansurfer", right? I said yeah and he waved at the guys on the beach and yelled to them "It's OK". I asked him what that was all about and he said they were going to flat my tires and he was telling them not to.

Once I was surfing Kealia beach and there was only one other guy out. He was my classmate from high school and I always thought of him as a friend. On this day however he paddled up to me and said. "I don't want to see you on my wave. What I mean is if I am on the wave then it's my wave. I don't care if you take off first or I do. If I am on the wave then it's mine." I say "Geez. Whatever ok yeah. There's plenty of waves." I just stayed away from him. I caught one wave though and got totally tubed and then the tube collapsed on me and I popped out of the whitewater to see this guy trying to take off on the wave. He pulls back but I think "Oh crap now hes going top give me xxxxx for riding his wave." I paddle out and he comes over to me and I think "crap now we're going to fight." But he just asks me "How did you do that?" I said "Do what?" He said "How did you keep from falling down when the wave collapsed on you?" I was releived and thought it was strange. He was probably a better surfer than me but here he was asking me how to do somehting. Anyway I told him I just lean into the lip so it presses me dopwn into the board. He said "I wish I could do that." That's so cool in a way. What a compliment coming from him.

I was surfing Wailua beach and this guy who lived down the street from me gave me a similar spiel. We grew up together and never had any problems growing up. But he was just a shmoe surfer so I didn't listen to him. I took off on a wave and he dropped in on me., I did a bottom turn and maneuvered my board so the nose was under his butt then I stepped on the tail sort of goosing him. I turned back down the wave and came back up and he persisted to ride the wave in front of me so I repeated the process and did it one more time before he cut out of the wave. He tried to catch up with me in the water but the surf was good and I kept catching waves before he could reach me. He caught up to me on the beach and threatened me. I just told him to go for it and waited. He backed off.

I was surfing a spot on Oahu called Maili point once with a friend from UH. There was only one other guy out and he did this same spiel. I don't want to see you riding my waves etcetera. There were lots of waves. It was really pumping 6 to 8 foot waves. We just waited for him to catch one then we had plenty of time to catch waves before he came back out.

I was surfing at Kealia beach after getting out of vet school. There was no one there I recognized. There used to be only a few surfers who surfed Kealia beach regularly and I was one and I knew all the others. Now some young guy drops in on me and tells me to go back where I came from so I tell him I'll go back to where I was when he was born which was right here surfing this break.
So what is worse.... dying or regretting it for the rest of my life? Obviously I chose not regretting it.
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Re: Etiquette....Here's a gray area to rule on....feedback?

Postby Big H » Wed Oct 21, 2015 6:09 am

oldmansurfer wrote:I am not speaking about you but what I have seen and heard about in Hawaii. I don't surf crowded break but have run into a few guys who acted like they felt entitled to the waves, oddly enough there were no real issues just attitude. Also oddly I knew some of them fairly well and never had any issues with them in the past. Most of the time only me and them out so I was so confused to get that attitude because waves were abundant and it wasn't like we would even see each other very often much less try for the same waves. Other stuff I have heard from people who surfed pipeline.

I never act that way....I don't carry an inflated sense of entitlement....I won't be bullied though or take s#$%t off anyone....never have.....when I was a teenager I never did get bullied; I used to step into situations that shouldn't really have concerned me other than I couldn't allow a guy or guys to pick on someone and not do anything when I could....it was a root of a lot of the fights that I got into, me defending guys who couldn't do for themselves....physical confrontations are rare here....and I've heard of a couple of breaks where the localism was actually spelled out (get out of here, these are our waves) that doesn't really happen here either; it's a lot more non-confrontational, the Indonesian way......
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Re: Etiquette....Here's a gray area to rule on....feedback?

Postby Tudeo » Wed Oct 21, 2015 6:36 am

oldmansurfer wrote:I wrote a piece about all the aggression I ran into surfing in all my years of surfing...

Wow OMS what a crazy localism there. Any idea why it's so extreme over there?
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Re: Etiquette....Here's a gray area to rule on....feedback?

Postby oldmansurfer » Wed Oct 21, 2015 6:59 am

Tudeo wrote:
oldmansurfer wrote:I wrote a piece about all the aggression I ran into surfing in all my years of surfing...

Wow OMS what a crazy localism there. Any idea why it's so extreme over there?

Well the Hawaiians were really taken advantage of and they feel invaded and need to defend their land and ocean. In my case I never really got into trouble probably because among the top local surfer guys were friends of me and my family. In fact they might punch out other guys who dropped in on me. I wrote before about the deepest tube ride I had and someone dropped in on me. It wasn't an aggressive drop in just a dumb selfish guy who probably thought I couldn't make it, but back then the rules were you don't drop in on anyone.


I was about 19 and went surfing at Hanalei (a long tubing right). I hadn't been surfing there in a while but heard the swell was up. Paddling out I had no idea how many surfers were already out. You couldn't see how many very well from the shore in larger surf. When I got out there were about 60 surfers! Way too many for me. I would have a hard time competing for waves with that many. I sat there and tried to figure out which side of the crowd to hang out on because I would have a better chance to ride some waves if I hung on one side or the other. On the inside (the Bowl) I could catch the leftovers or the waves where people wipe out since every single wave will have someone riding it. On the outside (Impossibles) I may be able to get the wave before the others have a chance. After catching a couple shorter and smaller leftover waves I decided to try outside and paddled over. It was real difficult there too since a few others had already pushed out into that area. They were stronger paddlers than me at that point and it was a fight for every wave and I lost every time.

Then I noticed waves breaking over about 75 yards from everyone which only broke about every 15 minutes or so but no one there. The waves looked fast but ridable and with no one there if I caught a wave every 15 minutes that would be one more wave every 15 minutes than what I was catching where I was. So I paddled over there. The first wave that came in after I got there I took off on and immediately got covered up by the wave. I was in the tube but completely covered in white water and figured I would be lunching it soon. But suddenly my head popped out of the whitewater. I could see down the wave and I was so far back in the tube I could not see where the wave was breaking. The wave made a gradual turn and I could not see the breaking part of the wave as it was hidden by the bend in the wave which was 30 yards or so ahead. I was at least 30 yards deep in the tube which is the furthest back that I had ever been. Gradually my body and board emerged from the whitewater and I could see light at the end of the tube but no sky because the wave curved a bit. I came closer and closer to the breaking lip and started thinking I was going to make it and sure enough I emerged from the tube to see 5 guys paddling to catch the wave I was riding. I figured maybe they didn't see me and yelled "WHOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOO" Partly to warn them and partly because I was so stoked I just had to yell at the top of my lungs.

The first 4 guys backed off when they saw me but the fifth guy dropped in on me. He made the wave break where he took off kind of chandeliering which obstructed my view and made me decide to straighten out. If not for him I would have gotten a backdoor tube ride there. I got pounded by the wave and towed for a while till my leash came off my foot. Then I had to swim in to get my board. I was a little disappointed because I would have gotten tubed again if not for that one guy. Still it was the best tube ride of my life so hard to feel very bad about it. By the time I got my board and paddled back out one of the local guys who was an enforcer type had punched the guy who dropped in on me in the face and was telling him to get out of the water. I don't know if he dropped in on someone else or what but pretty sure they knew I had an awesome wave that he interfered with and I am sure any excuse to chase someone out of the break was a good one.. I just paddled back to that spot again but never caught another incredible tube ride like that one again.
So what is worse.... dying or regretting it for the rest of my life? Obviously I chose not regretting it.
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Re: Etiquette....Here's a gray area to rule on....feedback?

Postby oldmansurfer » Wed Oct 21, 2015 6:19 pm

Here is a dialog about dropping in from the perspective of top end surfers. This is what I hear, that if you want to ride waves at crowded breaks such as pipeline, you have to drop in on people. What I have heard at pipeline the people who get dropped in on are the ones who have not spent a lot of time in the lineup or maybe because they are still a kook (not a very skilled surfer). http://www.theinertia.com/surf/to-go-or-not-to-go-the-ethics-of-dropping-in/
So what is worse.... dying or regretting it for the rest of my life? Obviously I chose not regretting it.
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Re: Etiquette....Here's a gray area to rule on....feedback?

Postby Tudeo » Thu Oct 22, 2015 2:33 am

oldmansurfer wrote:Here is a dialog about dropping in from the perspective of top end surfers.

Interesting article, also the comments are worth reading.

There are 2 opinions that catch my eye:
    1. it's not the level of surfing, it's the fun someone has riding a wave, so everybody is equally allowed to ride every wave.
    2. Let the kooks ride lesser waves, so the better surfers can optimally use what a good waves offeres.

I can understand both ways of thinking, if I must choose I would say it's better if u find a wave that fits ur abilities. So the kooks should stay away from the better and more demanding breaks.

It's exactly this reason why I never tried Padang2 when it's on. :wink:
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Re: Etiquette....Here's a gray area to rule on....feedback?

Postby oldenglish » Thu Oct 22, 2015 6:40 am

Just because the surfers at pipe say it's okay doesn't make it so. But, it is a reality. It's also a top vacation spot with tons of surf schools and dry hair paddle outs so regulating is a form of safety. Atleast that is what a lot of them say... With that said dropping in on someone on a wave like pipe and making them straighten out is probably the most unsafe move ever.
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Re: Etiquette....Here's a gray area to rule on....feedback?

Postby oldenglish » Thu Oct 22, 2015 6:42 am

Tudeo wrote:
oldmansurfer wrote:Here is a dialog about dropping in from the perspective of top end surfers.

Interesting article, also the comments are worth reading.

There are 2 opinions that catch my eye:
    1. it's not the level of surfing, it's the fun someone has riding a wave, so everybody is equally allowed to ride every wave.
    2. Let the kooks ride lesser waves, so the better surfers can optimally use what a good waves offeres.

I can understand both ways of thinking, if I must choose I would say it's better if u find a wave that fits ur abilities. So the kooks should stay away from the better and more demanding breaks.

It's exactly this reason why I never tried Padang2 when it's on. :wink:


The problem is kooks don't realize they are in danger.
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