Etiquette....Here's a gray area to rule on....feedback?

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Re: Etiquette....Here's a gray area to rule on....feedback?

Postby Big H » Sat Oct 17, 2015 10:06 am

jaffa1949 wrote:
oldmansurfer wrote:Communication is the key to getting along with others. Is that what I am missing out on by surfing alone? oh well

Communication there is one clear way, surfers from other countries do not necessarily have the same unwritten rules nor do they have an understanding of local rules!

Tell them , hey I'm taking this wave, you go this one I'll take the next, or vice versa. Doing that put you at great risk!
If you did that in Hawaii you'd have your fins punched out.
Do you talk to the other surfers , going left , going right etc. I hey it's my turn, often the newbies have no idea!
Enlighten them!

Testosterone levels rise in an unspoken paddle duel to catch a wave no matter where the right of it lies!
Male humans are very competitive for resources ( waves) but a call out can bring it back from primal ape level ( most times) .
The reply would then make the element of response different!


He was an Aussie....and he knew exactly what he was doing, cutting right across my nose when I was gearing up for a wave, even slowing down a bit to make me break paddle as he did a hard left right under my nose so that he could snake that wave....he missed that one but like I said came right back to the lineup and paddled around so that he thought he had the right to take the next one, but still right beside me trying to intimidate cause the next wave was on the way....didn't work out for him and I gave back as good as I got....and I actually got the wave....believe me if anyone was going to get their fins punched out it would be that guy, not me.....honestly, I think this case is more clear cut than the first one.
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Re: Etiquette....Here's a gray area to rule on....feedback?

Postby jaffa1949 » Sat Oct 17, 2015 10:14 am

The quote about getting fins punched out was not about you, but it is something I'd say to a snaker.
I tend to call people on poor "etiquette" most pull their head in others engage in an abuse match.
No fun then.

Waikikikikchan so right about arguing with idiot, they bring you done to their level and finish you off with illogic.
:lol:
I've taken up troll hunting just for fun, instead of a rifle I'll just use a pun! 冲浪爷爷
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Re: Etiquette....Here's a gray area to rule on....feedback?

Postby Big H » Sat Oct 17, 2015 10:25 am

waikikikichan wrote:Something happened to me today in the water, but i'll post it own. But it got me thinking of etiquette. Whose or what etiquette are we talking about ? 3 years ago I was surfing at Waikiki and this guy kept dropping in on everyone. I didn't say anything until he dropped in on my wife. I explain nicely that the break is from left to right and if he takes off on the right of everyone, he might cause a collision. He told me " What are you talking about !?! ". He explained to me the surfer on the shoulder or in front has the priority and the that the person behind needs to let him have the wave. Etiquette ( as he was taught ) is that the surfer in front has his back turned and can't see the rider behind, so for safety ( and etiquette ) the behind rider needs let the other rider have it. I tried unsuccessfully to explain the rules of surfing, since he was so adamant. I once was told "never try to reason with stupidity". So I said "You are right " and for the next 1/2 hour rode in front of him. He soon left and we never saw him again.

Actions speak louder than words.....excellent handling and turning the tables.... :lol:
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Re: Etiquette....Here's a gray area to rule on....feedback?

Postby Big H » Sat Oct 17, 2015 10:25 am

waikikikichan wrote:Something happened to me today in the water, but i'll post it own. But it got me thinking of etiquette. Whose or what etiquette are we talking about ? 3 years ago I was surfing at Waikiki and this guy kept dropping in on everyone. I didn't say anything until he dropped in on my wife. I explain nicely that the break is from left to right and if he takes off on the right of everyone, he might cause a collision. He told me " What are you talking about !?! ". He explained to me the surfer on the shoulder or in front has the priority and the that the person behind needs to let him have the wave. Etiquette ( as he was taught ) is that the surfer in front has his back turned and can't see the rider behind, so for safety ( and etiquette ) the behind rider needs let the other rider have it. I tried unsuccessfully to explain the rules of surfing, since he was so adamant. I once was told "never try to reason with stupidity". So I said "You are right " and for the next 1/2 hour rode in front of him. He soon left and we never saw him again.

Actions speak louder than words.....excellent handling and turning the tables.... :lol:
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Re: Etiquette....Here's a gray area to rule on....feedback?

Postby Big H » Sat Oct 17, 2015 10:28 am

jaffa1949 wrote:The quote about getting fins punched out was not about you, but it is something I'd say to a snaker.

Got it....been getting the finger pointed at me so often here I jumped the assumption.... :lol:
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Re: Etiquette....Here's a gray area to rule on....feedback?

Postby oldmansurfer » Sat Oct 17, 2015 4:38 pm

jaffa1949 wrote:
oldmansurfer wrote:Communication is the key to getting along with others. Is that what I am missing out on by surfing alone? oh well

Communication there is one clear way, surfers from other countries do not necessarily have the same unwritten rules nor do they have an understanding of local rules!

Tell them , hey I'm taking this wave, you go this one I'll take the next, or vice versa. Doing that put you at great risk!
If you did that in Hawaii you'd have your fins punched out.
Do you talk to the other surfers , going left , going right etc. I hey it's my turn, often the newbies have no idea!
Enlighten them!

Testosterone levels rise in an unspoken paddle duel to catch a wave no matter where the right of it lies!
Male humans are very competitive for resources ( waves) but a call out can bring it back from primal ape level ( most times) .
The reply would then make the element of response different!

Meh. I haven't got my fins punched out yet but I guess I just don't surf those breaks where aggressive jerks are abundant
So what is worse.... dying or regretting it for the rest of my life? Obviously I chose not regretting it.
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Re: Etiquette....Here's a gray area to rule on....feedback?

Postby oldmansurfer » Sat Oct 17, 2015 4:58 pm

About surfing new breaks there is always the communication involved in learning the rules of the break. Watch the other surfers and talk to them to be sure you have the rules down.
So what is worse.... dying or regretting it for the rest of my life? Obviously I chose not regretting it.
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Re: Etiquette....Here's a gray area to rule on....feedback?

Postby oldenglish » Sun Oct 18, 2015 11:09 pm

Top rule in surfing is do not drop in on others. It's dangerous. If he was paddling around you then paddle right back around him. If he keeps doing it, do it over and over till he is out of position. If he gets so deep he can't make the wave and you can then the problem is solved. Always paddle for the wave with people like that; just because you catch it doesn't mean you have to drop in, but if he misses it you can go, and, usually this forces people to commit to the wave and thus take it or wipe out giving you a chance for the one behind it. Not a grey area at all. One should never drop in. What he was doing was wrong but I guarantee you that much more trouble comes from dropping in than snakeing.
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Re: Etiquette....Here's a gray area to rule on....feedback?

Postby Big H » Sun Oct 18, 2015 11:54 pm

Yeah...if I let it go then he starts to think he can get away with anything and a drop in is next. And yeah, that guy wasn't making any waves but even if he was it was an outright snake so I wasn't going to lay down for that once I saw it coming after that first sucker punch.
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Re: Etiquette....Here's a gray area to rule on....feedback?

Postby oldmansurfer » Mon Oct 19, 2015 12:03 am

One of the scenarios I ran into was a group of guys who would have one paddle around me so I was in the middle. If I went deeper they just paddled around and when I was at my limit I knew I was probably past theirs but the outside guy would paddle for the wave till I backed off then he backed off letting the inside guy go. I figured I would just keep paddling and force him to go so he would go and wipe out maybe 3 out 4 waves but the fourth would be one of the best waves of his life. I managed to get a wave once in a while but there was a set wave that came in every 15 minutes or so and no one was riding that one so I paddled out and waited for it and got one of the best waves of my life. I wrote about this wave previously got tubed 6 times on that one closed out on me on the last one.
So what is worse.... dying or regretting it for the rest of my life? Obviously I chose not regretting it.
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Re: Etiquette....Here's a gray area to rule on....feedback?

Postby oldmansurfer » Mon Oct 19, 2015 12:31 am

Here is what I wrote about that.
I was at UH and heard the surf was up in Town so I grabbed my board and walked to the beach. I got to my usual breaks 3's and 4's and the waves weren't breaking right for that swell but I could see the Alamoana bowl was breaking so I paddled across to Magic Island and the bowl was too crowded but on the far side was a break with only 5 guys out and it looked nice so I went out there. I heard it was called "Concessions" and later that it was called "Tennis courts". Anyway it was right breaking wave and was about 4 to 6 foot that day which would be wave faces up to 10 feet and real hollow, tubing out.

When I got out there these 5 guys were being possessive about the waves. One guy would line up on either side of me so by convention I had to let the surfer in the more critical position take off but when I backed off, the surfer in the more critical position backed off too and the other surfer to my right in the less critical position would take off. I knew I could take off deeper than any of them because I was real good with late take offs and could usually take off deeper than most other surfers. So I positioned myself at my limit which was likely well beyond their limts and I kept paddling until the deeper guy had to take off. He didn't a couple times and I caught thopse waves but then he went for it. He usually ended up wiping out and I did this repeatedly but I think he got real tubed on at least one wave. That was fun for a while but I still didn't catch many waves.

I noticed there were bigger sets (8 feet) coming in that broke outside about every 15 minutes and no one was riding them so I paddled out there and sat and waited. On the first wave that came in I got in the tube and when I came out one of them was paddling up the wave so I cranked a hard turn right next to him spraying him with water in a sort of fade back/cutback maneuver. The fade back turn slowed my board and I got in the tube again and when I came out another of them was paddling up the wave so I cranked another turn and sprayed him and got in the tube again. When I came out a third surfer was paddling up the wave so I figured what the heck and sprayed him too and got in the tube again. This was turning into a great wave and as I was in the tube for the fourth time I found myself wishing one more of them was there when I came out and my wish came true. I sprayed him too and got in the tube again. When I came out there were no more surfers but I cranked a hard turn anyway and got in the tube again. These were not clean tubes and each time I was completely covered in foam and also completely covered by the tube. The end tube ride collapsed on me but all in all it was a fantastic ride.

I paddled back out and the group of them paddled toward me. I thought ok now I am going to have to fight them. But they just talked to me and asked me if I was from there. I said no I was from Kauai. They said "Oh! That explains it. We just wanted to let you know we were going to let you catch waves now." And just like that they quit trying to hog the waves and we enjoyed the rest of the day surfing together and talking story. They were basically good guys but hated the invasion of surfers from elsewhere pushing them out of the spots they surfed since they were little kids.

The waves were slow weak thin lipped waves but real hollow and great for getting tubed. I never surfed this break again but I was glad I did this day. This had to be one of my best all time waves in terms of the beauty and because I repeatedly got completely deeply tubed and just for the satisfaction of spraying those guys who were trying to hog all the waves.
So what is worse.... dying or regretting it for the rest of my life? Obviously I chose not regretting it.
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Re: Etiquette....Here's a gray area to rule on....feedback?

Postby oldenglish » Mon Oct 19, 2015 1:43 am

Big H wrote:Yeah...if I let it go then he starts to think he can get away with anything and a drop in is next. And yeah, that guy wasn't making any waves but even if he was it was an outright snake so I wasn't going to lay down for that once I saw it coming after that first sucker punch.


I get what you are saying, I really do. But, no other disregard of a rule will break down a lineup as bad as a drop in. You don't know if he would have dropped in because you never got yourself in position to be deeper than him. Now, if he would have dropped in, you would have probably dropped in on him in return and this ends up being a never ending cycle of returning the favor. If this was in a crowded lineup it gets much worse with numerous people disregarding the rules. Don't drop in, its the quickest way of ruining a lineup for a session. If others, especially skilled locals, see you doing it they might not know the circumstances and it's pretty hard to get them to disregard seeing you burn people.

I really understand where your coming from, I often have to surf around incredibly good surfers where they can and will take any wave they want. I don't drop in. I try to out position them or don't surf next to them. It's no different with bad surfers, it's just easier to out position them or catch waves under their nose.

You should have paddled for all the waves, catch them, look both waves, if he catches it pull back and paddle deeper than where he was and if he doesn't catch it or pulls back then take off and rip the xxxxx out of the wave so he feels dumb surfing next to you.

If you got deeper and he were to drop in on you than you are totally in the right to tell him hes wrong. Maybe, just maybe, it might be okay to start burning him then.

If this guy was a better surfer, he would have caught all those waves. Would you have still burned him? If you did, he would do two things, he would paddle around you just like before and drop in on you over and over making sure you can't surf the wave, all the while ripping the xxxxx out of it.

So you see, the only response to blatant snaking is out positioning them and surfing better. He sounds like he was a poor surfer, you could have easily paddled deeper, forced him off the peak, and sneak into waves that he paddled for but doesn't catch. Dropping in just makes it dangerous for both of you. If he were a good surfer that you couldn't sit deeper than and he could catch any wave he paddled for then you are forced to take his leftovers because dropping in is the quickest way to get someone who surfs better than you pissed off and that probably is not going to be fun for you.
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Re: Etiquette....Here's a gray area to rule on....feedback?

Postby Big H » Mon Oct 19, 2015 5:23 am

I don't get it....you're saying I was the one who dropped in? Not the case and didn't happen that way....thought I wrote that pretty clear....after I got cut off by him I faded him in a paddle battle on the next wave and cut him off then took and had a good wave. What's all this about dropping in? I did basically what you are talking about....I did not relinquish the peak even though he paddled around both of us there and took the priority position like we didn't exist...when I tried to take the wave that I had waited patiently for in position, this guy had just come out to the lineup and tried to snake the very first wave on the bounce....he didn't catch it so obviously supposed to go to the back of the queue...instead he goes to the front and flashes a "I dare you to say a word" smile at the two of us there....so the next wave that came was rightfully mine and I made sure I stuffed him as I took it....hard enough apparently that he pissed off and didn't come back.....end of story, no need for the what I should have done scenarios, learning those the hard way first hand. Just wanted an opinion on what actually happened. Cheers bro.
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Re: Etiquette....Here's a gray area to rule on....feedback?

Postby oldenglish » Mon Oct 19, 2015 8:36 pm

Your still wrong. If he is sitting in a better position the wave is his if he wants it. Pure and simple, you need to get deeper if someone is able to get deeper than you. How can someone keep track of the lineup que in a busy line up if the next in line is not taking his place at the deepest part of the peak insuring priority by being closest to the curl.

Your OP said that he snaked you over and over meaning he was paddling inside you. This means he was closest to the peak/curl. He technically did not snake you as he didn't catch any of those waves and you could have.

You also said he paddled around you and snaked you on the last wave, meaning again he was deeper and had priority. You say you faded him, meaning you took off closer to the shoulder aiming for the peak and then went the other direction. This is what fadeing is. And that he was getting up at about the same time. All of this means you dropped in on him.

Saying you were next in que only works if your at the spot to que up. When someone paddles around you always ask yourself, "could I be deeper?" Fadeing take offs generally mean your much closer to the shoulder because if you were on the peak there would be no room to fade.

You don't teach back paddlers to take turns by dropping in. You teach them by back paddling and taking every wave till they realize how much it sucks for someone to do it to them. You stuffed him alright. Causing a possibly dangerous situation which is exactly why you don't burn people.
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Re: Etiquette....Here's a gray area to rule on....feedback?

Postby Big H » Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:01 am

Three people bro....he could keep track....three people on a break and you try to snake the first wave that comes then go paddle to the top of the queue an arms length or two deeper than the guy whose wave you just tried to snake then paddle for the next one after just blowing one? And when I faded him (yes I know what it means, I did it and used it in a sentence) I stuffed him lol me I said and made him breK paddle so that he had no chance to make the wave, he was not standing, on the verge of standing or in any way threading to make the wave....I had to gun 5-6 more paddles to get in and he was a spectator at that point. And he's right......totally disagree. No need to play all the games that you're talking about....that's just being sneaky and indirect. Wave comes, I paddle because it is rightfully mine and the make sure I get it. Simple.
Last edited by Big H on Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Etiquette....Here's a gray area to rule on....feedback?

Postby Big H » Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:02 am

I don't get the smnaking over and over bit either....he tried ONE time....are you even reading what I wrote?! And a drop in is when a guy is up and you decide to ride the wave he is on already....no drop ins occurred or anything even close to it so stop being that up.
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Re: Etiquette....Here's a gray area to rule on....feedback?

Postby Big H » Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:19 am

The thing about etiquette OE is that it is there to maintain order and make sure no one gets hurt and everyone gets turns....if someone gets super technical about it and uses the rules to exploit the lineup to their benefit, you lose the plot so to speak going against the spirit of the rules....and lineups have a way of sorting these thugs out....I will tell you (and I'm going to get crap for this) but the fact is that if you did play those games, paddling around and going deeper and deeper to try to get first "rights" to every wave, me or one of the other boys would drop in on you, a real drop in and keep on it until you took the disrespect somewhere else...that is if you could even paddle for a wave. Fish belly white tourists paddles out and tries to snake a wave on the bounce just as he gets to the lineup and he's "right".......hahahahahahaha yiu kill me.
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Re: Etiquette....Here's a gray area to rule on....feedback?

Postby Tudeo » Tue Oct 20, 2015 4:15 am

Big H wrote:...when I tried to take the wave that I had waited patiently for in position... ...the queue...


In Bali because of the varying crowds of different abilities there's generally speaking no queuing rules applied, it's just as oldenglish mentions, trying to get as deep as possible to make the wave. If ur too deep and can't make the wave, the other guy who took off outside of u has it, the next in line pulls out. It's that simple.

But how simple this rule is, it is hard on the surfers. You can say it's a form of survival of the fittest.

Now the lesser surfers will have problems with this, they will lose many battles for good waves even using longboards, so it seems. It must be very frustrating if u refuse to face the facts and use a delusional reasoning instead that somehow tells u it's YOUR wave, but then the deeper guy still takes it :lol:

So maybe from that frustration comes this strong urge to win, if not the wave but then a collision or a dispute on this forum, using a whole lot of irrational wordings..
Death is coming to Brooklyn. And it's got buck teeth and a cotton tail!
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Re: Etiquette....Here's a gray area to rule on....feedback?

Postby waikikikichan » Tue Oct 20, 2015 9:39 am

The post is about Etiquette. If it was about outright Rules and Laws then of course "Dropping In" is wrong. In ideal situations with similar level surfers, riding similar boards, having similar attitudes and at an A-frame break or Point break, then it's simple. The guy inside gets priority. BUT .....
1) What if there's 10 shortboarders and 1 longboarder sits outside and comes around everyone on every set wave ?

2) What if there's 10 longboarders and 1 shortboarder is taking off down and inside of them ?

3) What if there's a Female ?

4) What if there's a young kid ?

5) What if there's a Camera Man ( that's the worst )

I think if you paddle to a spot empty spot ( or there's one guy there already ), anyone else who comes gives priority to those there first. It was wrong of the guy who tagged alone to battle and jockey for position.

Paddling deeper and deeper, doesn't end up in Happy Happy. That's just a battle. What if I'm a regular with local knowledge of the break. A attitude newbie sets up deeper than can be made ( take off spot has a reef that sticks out or landmark to go off of ). If I go and he goes over the falls because he is too deep, then someone would say i "stuffed him" or I caused the wave to "chandelier". When actually he took off from an un-makeble spot.

If the outcome was good then what ever actions taken was worth it. The other guy got the message, no one got hurt, he didn't hurt anyone after and may have saved him from a beating in the future. Spare the rod, Spoil the child. It may not be "RIGHT" in the word of law, but i say it was "RIGHTEOUS".

If laws were so easy, we would only need 10 instead of the 20,000 laws in the U.S.
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Re: Etiquette....Here's a gray area to rule on....feedback?

Postby Tudeo » Tue Oct 20, 2015 10:11 am

Good points waikikikichan, I think surfing in crowds is just very difficult and often not a Happy Happy thing. Still it's good there are rules so people can try to do the right thing. For rules to work they shouldn't be too complicated: Deepest surfer who makes the wave has right of way, don't drop in (unless on longboarders (relax, just kidding)) and always avoid collision. Sounds doable to me.
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