First shortboard EVER question

[tama9494]

Hey all, long time lurker here, sorry if this seems a little lengthy
(My dims: 21, 5'11, 150lbs)
To give you some background, I started surfing last summer, and I've had no problem getting up with my 7'6 fun board on head-high and lower surf since day 1. I can trim pretty well, but I've never attempted carving before.

Out of need for something shorter than the fun board, I recently picked up a 5'10 21"x 2.68" EPS groveler-shaped quad (5 fin box) w/ approximately 35-37 liters from a local shaper @ West end Long Island for about $550.

I picked something this wide with consideration for how choppy/pitchy the waves are here, and how the swell's seldom over 3'...
Honestly, I was talked into buying it by the shop keeper when I went in asking about fish boards, and at the time he DID tell me that I COULD go shorter than 5'10, but that I shouldn't worry about it b/c everything else about the board was fine for my dims and that I should still be able to duck dive it etc..I was too scared to shorten it down tbh, given that I've only ever ridden a 7'6 and an 8' before this one...anything below 6 felt daunting as is.
He told me that a squash tail groveler-type would do me better for learning the back-foot fundamentals necessary for shorter boards than a fish that traditionally handles front-foot-heavy

I only question the board choice because I've been reading around the internet for a while, and I'm starting to wonder... Isn't this groveler over-sized for someone with my dims in respect to volume and height..?

I've tried to duck dive on it, and it's pretty damn difficult..maybe I just suck, but the board barely sinks under me at all in the water, let alone when I duck dive. I have a pool, and I've tried practicing there, but still it's really tough to get the wider part of the board under, even while trying the scooping method, I just seem too damn light to do it
I was able to catch a couple waves, but it just doesn't really seem to have hold in the wave, it seems to skim on the water underneath me and I'm wondering if it's because it's an EPS and I'm used to poly, if it's short boarding that I need to get used to, or if its got too much damn volume for someone with my weight?
It's hard to tell if this is a good short board to be learning turns and carves on
What do you think?

[oldmansurfer]

You could learn to turn a 7"6" board or and 8 foot board. No need to go shorter however now you have one. It floats you well so you should have an easy time catching waves which is good but can't duck dive it...Oh well maybe that is the better of the usual situation we hear about on this board which is surfers who get a board that they can duck dive but can't catch waves with. I think it is just a matter of getting used to it. The wider tail will give it more push from the wave but make it more difficult to turn rail to rail (that means more difficult not impossible). You can learn to do turns with it and it will catch waves well.....obviously if you can't catch waves you can't learn to turn it.

[drowningbitbybit]

(My dims: 21, 5'11, 150lbs)... a 5'10 21"x 2.68"... Isn't this groveler over-sized for someone with my dims in respect to volume and height..?

I've tried to duck dive on it, and it's pretty damn difficult... it just doesn't really seem to have hold in the wave, it seems to skim on the water underneath me ... if this is a good short board to be learning turns and carves on

That should be easy to duckdive. If you can't duckdive that, you basically can't duckdive. Duckdiving is a skill just like anything else in surfing - it doesn't magically happen just because you have a smaller board.

A board like that will skim on the water because that's exactly what short wide grovellers are designed to do. They're built to be loose and you need to keep them constantly moving up and down the wave... and so, no, this board is certainly not over-sized for you at your level. Is it a good board to learn turns and carves? No. It's a good board to do turns and carves on, but it's a board for a more advanced surfer, and you've made like difficult for yourself by jumping down too small too fast.

It'll be a fun board on small waves one you've got the skills, but you'd be better off nailing the basics on a larger board to start with.

[oldmansurfer]

If you are sitting on your board how deep does it go?

[tama9494]

Wouldn't the turns be smoother railtorail due to the width, drowningbitbybit? As apposed to a board with more tail rocker? This one's flat, besides a noseflip

And I'd have to check but not very, I remember sitting last and floating up to where my legs surface like I'm on my fun board

[drowningbitbybit]

Wouldn't the turns be smoother railtorail due to the width, drowningbitbybit? As apposed to a board with more tail rocker? This one's flat, besides a noseflip

On a fat groveller, you'll generally go rail-to-rail as it's too wide, particularly at the tail, for a spray-spreading carve, but - given the skills - it would still be possible on this board. At 21" and 35 L it's not exceptionally wide (although it will also depend on the shape) and it won't be the board that's the limiting factor.

I've got a 40-L 22.5" wide groveller that I can spin around through 180º on the tail (...still haven't managed 360º yet though...) in small surf and it's only in bigger surf where the skateyness of the board makes that a bit sketchy and then I'll go rail-to-rail.

[drowningbitbybit]

Oh, and another thing - "rail to rail" on a short stumpy board is a world away from rail to rail on a 7'6

You need to be constantly turning and making use of the power of the wave. On a small board, it's almost as if the rail is a circle, and you need to constantly think about and change where and how much the weight is on the rail. It's not just cruising along and adjusting your weight from one side to the other every now and then.

[oldmansurfer]

I think the concept of rail to rail turning is that with a wider tail you have a wider portion of the board pushing back at you so the best board for rail to rail turns is a narrow pintail. Tail rocker helps to make the board turn smoother and quicker, more similar to a shorter board which has nothing to do with width although often wide tailed boards have little tail rocker. Now fin sliding turns is another story

[jaffa1949]

Tama, it is a frustrating day in the learner department today, the dimensions of the board you have bought would be OK if you had any skill ,but where you are in your surfing evolution totally unsuitable.
I'll explain why based on your posts, I can get up on head high and lower and can trim.
What do you mean by trim? Haven't carved yet and working on turns.

Trim is where you position yourself on the board ( usually a long board as short boards generate speed through turns) and can match and exceed the speed of the breaking wave across the face. Trim is not balancing well in the white water heading straight to shore.
Storekeepers will sell you what you ask for without any reference to your experience.
"I want a short board that can really carve!!" You got that but you can't carve and or barely turn.

If you could do all the basics of catch turn front side backside, bottom turn and come off the top and match speed with the wave then and only then is it easy to step down in size.
If you have been a longtime lurker then you will see this advice repeated over and over.
It is not the board that enables the turning but the surfer having the skills and being able to catch the waves.

Learn your skills on the 7'6" thoroughly then go down!!!!!!!

[waikikikichan]

I can trim pretty well, but I've never attempted carving before.

Out of need for something shorter than the fun board, I recently picked up a 5'10 21"x 2.68" EPS groveler-shaped quad

He told me that a squash tail groveler-type would do me better for learning the back-foot fundamentals necessary for shorter boards than a fish that traditionally handles front-foot-heavy

Isn't this groveler over-sized for someone with my dims in respect to volume and height..?

1) How can you get to the trimming part if you can't bottom turn ( which is sorta a carve ) ? I think you have a 12 o'clock / 12 o'clock stance where booth feet have the toes facing forward ?

2) What "need" to go shorter. Small elevator ? Small car ? Small apartment ? Want to be like Kelly ?

3) What !! Most beginners don't have a back foot or front foot bias. They're usually more concerned about not falling off. Learn the basics before you start messing with those advanced techniques.

4) Your groveler is UNDERSIZED for someone of your dims, Skill level and Experience.

[tama9494]

Sorry it's been so long,
I realize what you're trying to say Jaffa and Waikiki, my poor articulation is the problem here...
When I get on my 7'6, I can maneuver it down the line from a wide bottom turn and trim along the line consistently, but what I was trying to say is I want to learn how to perform all these things to a higher degree and start learning to shred more with cutbacks etc, which is why I stepped down.
I DID read all the forum posts I could regarding stepping down, but I hadn't taken into account the drawbacks to buying a high volume shortboard, and I was questioning this exact purchase b/c of how ridiculous and floaty it is when I try handling it in waves

I honestly confused myself with surfing jargon...in my head, "turning" to me meant doing crazy and quick reaction surfing up and down the wave, which is what I can't do on my funboard

[oldmansurfer]

It is very likely that the reason you can't do cutbacks and off the lips and other shredding is because you haven't learned how to use your board and also probably you haven't learned where to do these turns on which wave. Not that the 7'6" board won't do those shredding maneuvers because it very likely will.

[oldmansurfer]

Considering your situation that 5'10" board might be fine for the wave you want to surf but you need to improve. So maybe some lessons? Or just go surf a lot and get very fit. Anyway you look at it from a 7'6" board to a 5'10' board is a huge jump down in size. Most people wouldn't be able to surf a board (for a while) that much shorter than the original one.

[waikikikichan]

I hadn't taken into account the drawbacks to buying a high volume shortboard, and I was questioning this exact purchase b/c of how ridiculous and floaty it is when I try handling it in waves.

So which board, the 7'6" or the 5'10" has more volume ?

The reason I suspect you can't turn the 7'6" is because you turning from the middle, which means your trying to whole length of 7'6". When I turn my 9'0" usually on the 1/4 or less of the board is in the water. That is basic technique of learning how to use your rail, edge and transfer of weight. The reason you can't control the 5'10" is for the same reason, you're standing in the middle , so the fins aren't engaged. It just skips on the surface instead of locking into the waves face. Trying moving your back foot over the fins on both boards and see what happens. ( and stop looking down at your feet )

[tama9494]

The 5'10 I think has too much volume, it seems to float to the top of the wave and straight down into the break whenever I try paddling hard into one...but I've read that you need to really take off on a groveler and really push the board into the face b/c that's just how grovelers respond to taller waves...

My main concern being, I don't want to learn on a board that is not suited for my body type and one that I'll have to eventually replace with a new groveler as I get more skilled to ride one and am able to use it to its full advantages, meaning I'd have to buy one with less volume...

I actually read up A LOT on turning on these forums since I made my first post and bought myself a surfing pad for the long board. I've been trying to hit it with my back foot and I saw SIGNIFICANT improvements in my turns, I definitely was attempting bottom turns at the middle of the board before when i made my first post...now turning and foot placement comes easy

Conversely, it seems like a lot of folks on their grovelers have that same tendency to leave their back foot forwards after popping b/c the groveler's a bit easier to paddle on with one's center of gravity more towards the nose of the board - from what i've read anyway - so I have to start making a conscious decision to put my foot back more over the fins after I pop. . .

[tama9494]

what would have been a better board choice to step down to if I'm extremely consistent on a 7'6 and can do bottom turns into trims?

[oldmansurfer]

I weigh 210 pounds and I ride a board similar to a groveler it's 7'6" and I sit on the water with it. It doesn't sink underwater more than an inch if I even it out. I can't duck dive it but it works just fine. I think you are over estimating the effect of volume.

[dtc]

The 5'10 I think has too much volume, it seems to float to the top of the wave and straight down into the break whenever I try paddling hard into one...but I've read that you need to really take off on a groveler and really push the board into the face b/c that's just how grovelers respond to taller waves...

This may be related to volume, but is absolutely related to paddling ability. If you are floating to the top of the wave you aren't 'breaking the ledge' - ie being in the wave; rather you are being sucked up the face by the wave (the water on a wave is moving from the base to the lip as the wave moves inland). You need to overcome that. Yes its harder with the grovellor style board because they have such a concentrated volume (short wide and thick), hence why they are mainly for small waves.

Go for a 6ft8 fish style board or a 6ft8 hybrid or egg. Or if you really want to, a 6ft6 ish standard shortboard, perhaps slightly wider than usual. No point heading straight for a grovellor, that's a more specialised board that is harder to surf.

[tama9494]

Hey all, I figured I'd report back, its been a while..
I took a little of all of the advice given to me here and went back to focus on my form and paddled out with my funboard for a week or so, giving the advice a chance by refining my foot positioning, my popup speed, and my paddling power, even though I was convinced that I was doing fine, being that I could catch pretty much anything the ocean threw at me on the 7'6
After about three or four waves, I noticed how much bigger of a window I had for turning by making an effort to get up on the board and onto my feet more quickly, and how really that was the root to all of my problems. So after improving my paddling so I can get on the wave earlier, getting up faster, and positioning my feet correctly, it all changed the game for me big time. And really, all it took was making a more conscious effort about doing so. I realize now that I had a lot of room for improvement in these three areas, yet I feel like I would not have been aware of my flaws in those departments if I hadn't gone down in size to a board that was less forgiving than my wider, 22" fun board. Which is kind of annoying...
But yeah, I was able to bottom turn really easily after feeling out my back foot positioning and my weight distribution on the board, and all I was doing wrong was the positioning of my back foot, which was usually about 2 feet or so up the board from the back (which is a huge flaw that I was completely oblivious to).
But by far the best advice I've ever been given was looking down the wave while and after getting up on my feet. I didn't realize that I was looking down or forwards after popping up. No exaggeration, that's when I felt everything fall into place. Knowing when to turn and how to shift my body weight on the board, it all came intuitively after that. And all I needed to to was turn my head
I was able to do SO much more on my fun board than what I convinced myself was not even possible on a 7'6 board, and since then I've been shredding almost miraculously on my groveler. I can pump and turn to gain speed and break on my backfoot to slow down, go vertical and touch the lip with my fins after bottom-turning, and pretty much catch any wave I can thanks to relearning how to pop up and paddle.. so I just wanted to thank you guys for encouraging me on going back to my hybrid to refine my mechanics first.
I'm now in love with my groveler

[jaffa1949]

Nice to hear, you gave yourself a good result, now are functioning as a surfer on two boards.
You are enhancing your skills !
Thank you for giving us the feed back