Bad habits

[drowningbitbybit]

Here's one for the more experienced guys... Waikikichan and Jaffa, I'm looking at you ...although everyone else can jump in too

What are your hints and suggestions for getting rid of ingrained bad habits?

I've been surfing many years now (more years than I'd like to admit if you were to see me surf...). I'm never going to be a big-wave charger, or a hotshot grommet (30-odd years too late for that), but I can hold my own in the surf, and I am definitely not "learning" (in the sense of doing something new - perfectly happy to admit that there's loads of room for "improving").
However, I've picked up a few bad habits along the way. Most of them are tiny little mis-timings or positioning issues... but the kind of thing that makes a 10-second tube ride into a getting-stuck-on-the-flats ride or failing to make the re-entry from a top turn.

Now, noting that I'm a) shortboarding and b) often at very crowded breaks, the actual wave time is usually quite short, and I find it difficult to get out of these bad habits.

So what are your mental/physical tricks to get out of bad surfing habits?




You can tell it's the new year... determined to get rid of bad habits (again)

[dtc]

Good question

My only contribution is that you need to notice what you are doing wrong, understand what you are doing wrong and understand how to do it right. Then try and do it right. One error at a time - like a golf swing, if you try and fix 2 things at once, you probably will create a third problem.

Small errors like your probably require some video analysis (can you get an unpaid photography intern for a few weeks trailing you around 'for experience', including experience in action video photography....) and/or coaching. Then you know what is wrong and then you know how to fix it. All that is left is, you know, doing the fixing.

Actually, its pretty clear you need a surfing holiday in the Maldives - that will solve all issues, time on the wave, coaching, video analysis, plenty of self appointed experts on the boat to give suggestions.

That probably doesn't help and I'm very clearly no surf coach. But I have coached other sports, including some fairly technical ones (cricket, mostly), and the 'identify, understand, correct' process, although a simple statement, should work for surfing as well. The 'understand' bit is the hardest, actually - you can easily identify you are doing something wrong (because you get the wrong outcome), but you don't understand why you are getting the wrong outcome. This is where coaching or some independent analysis (eg video) can be really helpful.

What to do to correct is the easiest conceptually (just read any golf magazine), although can be the hardest to actually do (just watch any golfer...).

[oldmansurfer]

It sounds like you have accepted that you aren't going to improve and then are asking how to improve? I think the key to getting better is to push yourself. You have to want to get better and let that drive you to work at it. One of the things I love about surfing is that it takes my mind off of other things. When I am out surfing I am thinking about the next wave and what I want to do on it if the opportunity arises. I set myself little goals like first it was a good bottom turn and now I have bottom turn down really well, then it was making the steep drops and now I do that extremely well but still need to work at the rest of everything a bit. Set yourself small goals like pick one of your mistakes and concentrate on not making that one mistake. Once you get it move on to the next. Make it something reachable, not trying to become the next Kelly Slater, but something like making a better bottom turn or a stronger top turn or turn in a more critical position or... a small and reachable goal. Once you achieve it that will give you motivation to keep learning. Most likely you will need to be a bit more specific about exactly what you want to fix to get more specific help.

[drowningbitbybit]

My only contribution is that you need to notice what you are doing wrong, understand what you are doing wrong and understand how to do it right. Then try and do it right.

Oh, I know what I'm doing wrong!
I'm sure that there are plenty of things that I don't know about, but I've got enough to be getting along with

I also understand (usually) what the right thing to do is and how to it, but I find that my body doesn't listen in the split second of - for example - the top turn. My muscle memory is too good (...but sometimes wrong)

[drowningbitbybit]

It sounds like you have accepted that you aren't going to improve and then are asking how to improve?

Don't be silly, I'm not accepting that I'll never improve - quite the opposite

It's not about pushing myself - it's about not making the same mistakes (whether on large waves or small) and I'm talking minor corrections here, just tweaks, but tweaks that have as yet refused to become a habit.

I agree that one at a time is usually the best - for example, I find that I often don't weight the inside rail with my leading foot quite enough, and so I spent a session consciously weighting (and then unweighting) the toes/heel, which gave good results.

But what I'm getting at, is that muscle memory takes over unless I'm concentrating on it specifically, and I'd like my muscle memory to just sod off, go away and learn what its supposed to be doing

[drowningbitbybit]

Most likely you will need to be a bit more specific about exactly what you want to fix to get more specific help.

For the most part, I know exactly what the problem is, and exactly what ought to be done - that's not the problem. The question is how do you get rid of bad habits and develop good habits?

[dtc]

Oh, I know what I'm doing wrong!
I'm sure that there are plenty of things that I don't know about, but I've got enough to be getting along with

I also understand (usually) what the right thing to do is, but I find that my body doesn't listen in the split second of - for example - the top turn. My muscle memory is too good (...but sometimes wrong)

Aaah, as a 'coach' my follow up question is 'do you actually know what you are doing wrong or do you just think you know?' Trying to correct the wrong problem is obviously not the best outcome, but trying to correct problem 1A without also correcting the linked problem 1B is also not going to get you there. I say this is my 'coach' question because my follow up would be 'this is why you need a coach'...(or some form of objective evidence, such as a video)

That said, assuming you do know what is wrong, then I can only offer another simple 'generalised' coaching platitude: visualise. There are heaps of studies showing that visualisation really helps correct muscle memory and embed new 'memories' (also called 'mental imagery') - some claim that sport is 90% mental (I think this is overstating it, but whatever). The 'science' is that when you imagine performing a task perfectly, you are creating neural patterns in your brain, just as if you had actually physical performed the action, and then your body does it when you actually ask it to. So fix up that muscle memory without even getting in the water!

Ever see those aerial ski competitors prepare for a jump - many of them visualise and move their body around while standing at the top of the run (this is related to something called visual motor behaviour rehearsal). Its worth reading up a bit about it - things like internal vs external perspective, there is a book called 'Inner Game of Tennis' with self 1 and self 2 (a bit xxxxx and outdated but it might be at your library - or some of the more modern books on the same issues). etc This paper has a good summary of the science and various methods http://www.athleticinsight.com/Vol6Iss1/SkillsPDF.pdf

[oldmansurfer]

When I want to do something new surfing which I haven't really done that recently because I have done so much more prior to this time around learning to surf...well I did learn to do a tail sliding turn but that was an accident...anyway I would do mental imaging which is to imagine myself doing the maneuver and at the same time I might also move my body in as similar manner to what I think I would need to in the maneuver. In the case of going off the back of the wave during a top turn there are probably a few ways to avoid this. I had this same problem and what I did was to commit to the turn and lean hard into it. Another way would be to turn off the top in a more critical area so the lip will help to throw you back down. Another way would be to turn sooner and don't go all the way onto the back of the wave. So then you just imagine yourself doing one of those fixes and you think about it while you are waiting for a wave then just keep at it. If you really find you can't change then try another method and do the same thing. Keep at it, muscle memory is that .....so the more you do it right the more you will remember how to do it right. Ultimately if you just can't do it find another maneuver to do in those situations.

[drowningbitbybit]

Ah, see, now we're getting into it

I think you're both right with the mental imaging... like most surfers I do the mental run-through of where I need to be, what I need to do etc., but it's a bit of a one-off before the session or the wave.
Maybe I need to be sticking to one thing but before I even get out the house, and go through the action over and over again before I even hit the water

[drowningbitbybit]

In the case of going off the back of the wave during a top turn there are probably a few ways to avoid this.

Oh, to go off the back of the wave... that's the least of my worries
Without getting into specifics, because I'm more interested in the general way that people get over bad habits rather than specific problems, I tend to wipe out in a much more spectacular way, falling right down the face, because I've tried to spin the fins out above the lip and not made it

[waikikikichan]

"What are your hints and suggestions for getting rid of ingrained bad habits?" - If they're ingrained then "that" is you. That is your style. If you said you have a bad habit of getting on one knee first on the pop up or you paddle with cupped hands, then that you should try to fix.

"perfectly happy to admit that there's loads of room for "improving"). - I still feel I have a lot to learn myself. It took me 3 years of surfing daily to learn how to noseride. 6 years before I could perform a roadhouse cutback.

"I've picked up a few bad habits along the way. Most of them are tiny little mis-timings or positioning issues... but the kind of thing that makes a 10-second tube ride into a getting-stuck-on-the-flats ride or failing to make the re-entry from a top turn. - That's not bad habits, that's spazzes or brain farts. Laugh it off, Mind over matter. If you don't mind it , then it don't matter.

" I'm a) shortboarding and b) often at very crowded breaks, the actual wave time is usually quite short, and I find it difficult to get out of these bad habits." - It a quick, peaky, fast beach break. Don't look and then act. The time it takes for your eyes to send the info to your brain and then the time for your brain to send signals down your spine to your feet takes to long. Anticipate, don't react. ( refer to below also )

"I also understand (usually) what the right thing to do is and how to it, but I find that my body doesn't listen in the split second of - for example - the top turn. My muscle memory is too good" - You said you have the muscle memory. So just come off the bottom turn and go right of the top without looking. You know the lip is already coming down. I'm not saying go in blind, but trust your wave knowledge.

So what are your mental/physical tricks to get out of bad surfing habits? - You have Paralysis by Analysis. Should my toes be here ? Should i weight the rail now ? You got to just let it flow. The ASP judging criteria says Speed, Power and Flow. Flow is linking the moves. Parko has flow, I love watching him glide over the surface.
Try this: Go put on some running shoes or boots. Lace them up normally. Fast and smooth yeah ? Now take them off and tie them up again but this time try to figure out what the index finger is doing versus the middle finger, where is the wrist angle is compared to your elbow. think if over than under better than under than over. More Slow and messed up, huh ? Your surfing has to become 2nd nature. almost without thought. Just like when you tie your shoes.

Dbbb, I am glad you care about improving YOU and not your board. Try these suggestions that don't answer your question but will improve the outcome you're looking for.

1) Go ride a big old single fin for a full session ( or a whole week ). Next session on your Go To board you'll be flying. You'll be going faster and making drops you couldn't before. Shortboarders should try longboards now and then to learn to work with the wave, body positioning and glide. And longboarders should try short(er) boards to learn to take steeper drops.

2) Surf to win, Not to defend. You said you surf a crowded break, your Mind might be on who's behind you or what guys in your way. Ever watch a moto GP or MX race where the leader is trying to hold off the 2nd place guy ? He's not racing he blocking. The 2nd guy is faster cuz he is full out trying to catch the 1st place guy. Find someone to split the peak with and just FLY !! If you're like "oh No" " yikes, what do I do ?" "is this right" , you're holding back. Scream "yes!" Hoot and holler, get pumped. Enjoy the fact you're riding ( and turning ) on water.

3) Sounds like a broken record, but get a Carver skateboard. It transformed the way I cutback. I pump better and visualize the turn quicker and calmer. I go up and down my street 10 times and feels like a real surf session.

4) Use your other senses. For barrel riding, Don't only See the lip about to throw but Hear the white water behind you. Feel the angle of the wave changing under your foot. Feel and Smell the air pressure changing.

[drowningbitbybit]

Good answer Mr. W
Lots of things to think about there... or, more specifically, not think about. I think you're right about the flow, which is probably my weakest point. The flow linking isolated manoeuvres (which I'm pretty good at) is sometimes lacking because I've concentrated on the first turn or trick.

You're right about the skateboard too - I got a skateboard (after a 30-year gap) a couple of months ago, and after a wobbly couple of weeks, found that it helps with a more fluid transition between turns and speeds up my movement in the water.

Right then, a bit of stretching and visualisation this afternoon, and then into the water for the dawnie tomorrow

[drowningbitbybit]

"What are your hints and suggestions for getting rid of ingrained bad habits?" - If they're ingrained then "that" is you. That is your style.

Oh good, I have a style!

Yup, I agree with you here. I have accepted what my style is (it'll never win world championships... it's not the most graceful... but it works... usually) and now I'm trying to iron out some of the parts of that style that are actually "wrong" (by which I mean don't give me the intended result).

I've also stopped giving a flesh whatever anyone else thinks of my 'style'!

[dtc]

Dbbb, I am glad you care about improving YOU and not your board. Try these suggestions that don't answer your question but will improve the outcome you're looking for. .

Oh yeah, I forgot this. Obviously you need a new board, and probably some new fins. A new wetsuit wouldn't go astray either (do you even wear them up your way?)

Then you will be fine. Problems solved

[jaffa1949]

Make your surfing Daoist poetry.
Hang loose in the juice Bruce.
Go with the flow Joe.
integrate when you skate mate!

Now sincerely! The Kung Fu of surfing , if you think about a move, it is already too late.
Respond and let the wave indicate what is going on, a reaction is seconds slower.
I have found where ever or what I am surfing on my best surfing is from being in the moment with the wave, I have monumental failures when I try to force a move or do something I have pre-analysed .

There are surfs where I try and improve a move or learn a move but then I have no expectation of doing anything other than the move.

Three different days of surfing in Rote reminded me of going with the flow.
First day great double overhead surf ( at my limit, scary factor up)
got rag dolled down the reef in a wipeout! A couple more waves but very hesitant and became unfun!
Next day ( slightly smaller) I had the yips, spooked on every wave able to surf but timing awful and just squeaking through, frustrated trying to analyse my way out to surf well, reactively angry and kicking sand and mutteringly so!
Third day paddled straight off the boat with just a go for it and enjoy attitude not even thought about straight into first wave of biggest set, hooked the high line high speed total full wave package (Stoked was give the wow fat man on the wave of the day Shaka by paddlers).
No thoughts, just stoke, me and the wave each for the full 300 yards.
Fully improved you betcha

[waikikikichan]

Dtc - just got done surfing. Was wearing a Dry suit, hot fiber gloves and head cap. Cool thing is you don't need to shower and change into dry clothes. I am already wearing thermal underwear inside my dry suit.

[dtc]

Dtc - just got done surfing. Was wearing a Dry suit, hot fiber gloves and head cap. Cool thing is you don't need to shower and change into dry clothes. I am already wearing thermal underwear inside my dry suit.

ok, makes me think that wearing a 3/2 in 21 degree water and 28 deg air temp might be a bit, as we say down here, wussy (weak)....but my toes still get cold after a few hours

[drowningbitbybit]

An update after this morning's session...
Large waves, reasonably clean although a little disorganised. Post-xmas fitness letting me down a bit, but at least I know what to do about that

So anyway... (none of this is criticism or contradiction by the way, just discussion)

You have Paralysis by Analysis.

That's not quite right in this case. I think that's often true for the newbies, but I've got a lot of experience (talent is a different matter ) and I'm not overthinking while on the wave. Quite the opposite... muscle memory is doing all the work... but sometimes not giving quite the result I want.

if you think about a move, it is already too late.... Respond and let the wave indicate what is going on, a reaction is seconds slower.

Similar to above, I think I already am going with flow and riding on instinct. But my instinct needs a polish

Aaah, as a 'coach' my follow up question is 'do you actually know what you are doing wrong or do you just think you know?' Trying to correct the wrong problem is obviously not the best outcome, but trying to correct problem 1A without also correcting the linked problem 1B is also not going to get you there.

This made me think... without going too much into the nuts and bolts (this thread isn't supposed to be about technique as such), I started off with the thing that I wanted to fix this morning but, previously, I'd been correcting the thing that was the issue rather than the thing that was the cause of the issue.

Again, just to reiterate, I'm talking about very small 'details' here, not like a newbie that can't catch the wave or rides straight towards the beach. A minor change in position/weighting.

Anyway, corrected an issue (1B) that I figured would lead to problem 1A... then went down an overhead face, back up to the lip, good carve at the top, back down and cutback into the pocket, then back up to the lip and back along the face as the wave flattened out behind me.
Previously, that would have been down the face, back up to the lip, then a carve which kinda run out onto the face and out of the pocket and out of speed


So, back to the point, the technical aspect was sorted out, but now it's making that small change into a habit for every wave which is the hard part!

[oldmansurfer]

I seem to have a problem of popping up too far forward on my board on bigger waves to really jam carves. I think my whole mindset is different when I go for bigger waves and I probably jump forward on the board to try to get down the face quicker but I have to remember to step back toward the tail before I try to jam a hard top turn or cutback. Unfortunatley I don't get to surf larger surf enough to really learn to do this fix. I'll get it some day. I think the real answer is to keep at it and don't get discouraged.

[dtc]

Legend, all sorted then!