Surfing and the environment

[larky]

Surfing and the environment

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I have changed my thinking on travel sticking to my local breaks around Brighton. I think as surfers we sould lead the way on reducing our carbon footprints on our uk travel and overseas travel?

However this has not always been that easy hostle bus drivers and other old people giving me grief about my 6.1" board obstructing their view of the downs nice old folk?

[Phil]

what a great idea, why didnt i think of that from now on im just going to surf the south coast and not bother driving to the north coast when its fireing, i mean what would that save in carbon 0.05g? no more traveling for me i think im going to single handedly save the planet!!!!!!!!

[drowningbitbybit]

Hello, I'd like to introduce you to Mr Elephant. He sits in the corner, and we don't talk to him.
His first name is 'Travel'.

[larky]

No but without searious action of the next 100 years or so Mr Elephant will not be sitting in the corner he will be floating, and Phil if North Coast is so good why dont you just live up there and do your bit, its not just the 0.05g as you say but all the long haul flights too. But if you dont care about the environment continue your selfish lifestyle and soon you won't have anywhere to live because we will all be under water but hay who cares we do a water based sport and no you are not going to single handed save the planet its going to take every selfish person to pull his finger out and for the government to take action. But lets just stick our heads in the sand while its still here and just PARTY

[phillwilson]

eeep , an emotive issue indeed.

and one that to be honest I swing back and forth on....its like drinking and smoking etc, bad habits that are hard to curb because...well..basically...we don't want to !! we are addicted and may even be pre-disposed as a species to seek out ways to accomplish what we see as our goals.

Darwinian theory would suggest this is for the advancement of the species, what I would find interesting to know is how far into the future does this theory reach?
cos from my own musings..I believe we fight for
A. ourselves and
B. those who are directly around us, our peers and families.

while we may achedemically talk about the longer future..ie what will happen to those born outside of our own lifetime...I think it is hard to feel any real attachment to them as they are mearly potential rather then anything we can actually harm or help.

therefore I personally (and i know this is the bit where people with dig in) feel that I try DO try to make choices to do the right thing when it comes to anything that will affect those who surround me (picking up litter..even other peoples, behaving in a polite way, offering help to those less fortunate who I see around me etc) ...

I DON'T REALLY FEEL CONNECTED TO THE BIGGER PROBLEM, I know I am, and I know that I should pitch in with it (I drive carefully and try not to just dispose of white good etc..but largely this is actually near-sighted economical reasons rather then long term planet saving)...but on the whole it doesn't REALLY worry me cos as harsh as it sounds , I wont be there...its just a fact and my reaction is probably from an lessened sense of empathy to potential people who may or may not be created..rather then to real people i know or babys my friends may or may not want to have etc.

Just a thought..and I kno im going to fall out even more here..but really, just think about this...

Who says WE HAVE to be here always anyway?

Sience would suggest that when we talk about saving the planet what we really mean is "reserving our place on it" the earth is made or much tougher stuff then can be broken by a little CO2 ...its more our ticket to the big trip that is in jeopardy....but who says that endlessly multiplying and going n and on is what is SUPPOSED to happen?

I think there could well be a future earth without humans, but the world WILL go on until she sun falls out of the sky and maybe our brief period of enjoyment was all we ever had anyway, so for me , I will worry about how my life affects those I touch and leave the bigger picture to chance.

[Real Pol]

Bloomin eck Phillwilson!! Have you been keeping that one in for a while?

Larky - You'll find most people on here have pretty good environmental ethics, but throwing around ravings such as suggesting that people you know nothing about have selfish lifestyles will get you nowhere. That's the type of rubbish that alienates people from the environmental debate. It's not debating it's mud slinging. You can't force anyone to live a certain way it's about choice, yes you can help them make the right choice but you're going about it the wrong way.

Get a grip.

[larky]

Its not mud slinging and I'm not telling people what they should do I've just simple stated what I've done. As for the rest surfing in the ocean connected to the environment if global warming continues without real solutions and people caring Surfers Against Sewage do great stuff for the oceans but it doesn't stop there just because that is our play ground. All the issues are interconnected, I'm not trying to alienate people about the environmental debate just posting what I've done but you can't care about the cleaness of the ocean and ignore CO2 that doesnt make sense. Every little helps and if everyone got on board it would be a lot easier to change our habits but saying one person can't save the planet is not really debating is it? I think you need to get a grip and yes it is selfish to say I can't save the planet on my own or 0.05g is all the carbon footprint I use going from the south to north every time its firing I didn't say he should stop but surfers in general as the sport can involve large amounts of travelling to think about reducing our foot print. I'm not pretending to have all the answers or to be perfect but I can debate without being flippant about ideas.

Very interesting so how would you go about reversing global warming ignore it? I have a an opinion and I thought this would be a great place to debate it, I understand it is very hard to change lifestyles this debate was not intended as a personal attack but it seems to be taken as one. It seems to have got people thinking which is what I hoped to do. In my experience the most defensive people are the ones most scared of change.

[collinet]

Everybody travels, get over it. If we want to help the environment it will take the government to want to switch to a more efficient fuel than gasoline. Even if everyone drove electric cars, where do you think that electricity comes from? Power plants that burn fossil fuels. We need to do away with fossil fuels and use only renewable resources, but that wont happen for a long time, and we have no control over when it does. For now just live your life man, surf, travel, do what you want, you have no say or effect in what happens in this world.

[phillwilson]

[quote="Real Pol"]Bloomin eck Phillwilson!! Have you been keeping that one in for a while?

quote]

lol i was in a state i like to call caffine-profound !!!! i was at work and this was my release.

ok interesting thought...what would you all do if "environmental doomsday" becamed less off a boogyman and more of a specific...

a. world IS going to be screwed in 20 years
b. world IS going to be screwed in 80 years
c.world IS going to be screwed in 180 years
...unless we change etc

think my response would be
a. might be able to help a bit but would feel my quality of life would suffer detrimentally and would be less happy cos i couldnt own att the things i surround myself with go where i want and do what i like doing
b. would be about where many are now.. ie i would probebly do my tolken bit so my grandkids didnt switch my life support off for being a xxxxx.
c. would probably just carry on as I am as i feel no real affinity to supporting a potential future by creating a less plesent own user experiance


god im such a selfish git,,,then again I subscribe the the pleasure-utilitarian theory


also for the sake of the debate..would you actually give a hoot if you found out the planet was futzed in 180 years no matter what we did...to be honest i would see it as a relief...we could all just resign ourselves to it stop trying to plug the dam with out little toes and actually demit that we messed up our ability to live on the planet and it was time to surrender it over to another species more suited ot the new environment.


Phill

[Nettinoo]

This debate seems to have catergorised people into problem solvers and people who use a lot of negative energy to try to justify why they can't be bothered to change their habits. Perhaps there is no point doing anything environmentally motivated. The climate change and environmental expert from the Guardian would certainly agree. He's now busy driving around in a Humer and seems to think that we can't do anything to slow down the rate that the earth will heat up. (Yes, that was a bit of a bummer to read when I was in the middle of creating an eco clothing collection.) I'm going to do a Ph.D in sustainable textiles soon and I have had to assess the possibility that what I do may be completely pointless. The thing is no-one really knows whats going to happen in the future and scientists have been known to be wrong in the past (the earth wasn't flat etc...). Isn't it a bit like falling from the top of a building
and assessing things each floor you go hurtling past! I believe, and in no way am a professing to be right, that it's better to work towards a more sustainable future than do nothing. It's surely a test of human ingenuity and our ability to adapt to the challenges the planet gives us. If people don't want to rise to the challenge then they don't have to but I'm a bit fed up of being called a "hippy"
or it being implied that I think I'm some kind of saint for identifying a potentially harmful problem, engaging with it and trying to
use my creative brain to provide a solution. I get sick of listening to friends expressing the merits of Primark and harping on about their new cars etc. But I'm not allowed to say anything coz it's like I'm the fun police. When did caring about the environment become
a chore, an inconvenience. Surely it's an opportunity to do something exciting. In design its created loads of exciting outcomes. It's more of a challenge to design with ethics and the environment in mind. There are also always loads of reasons why not to do something, like politicians getting in the way etc etc but I honestly think these are just excuses to not bother and if everyone thought like this nothing would ever change. Big things happen because a few people decide to make them happen.
I think there are people with vision who want to improve things for everyone and they shouldn't be ridiculed for having a go. Let them do it. After all what harm can it do?

[Real Pol]

Nettindoo, I completely agree with you in being classed as the fun police, that is the problem when you blatantly tell people they are being selfish, they don't listen to your valid points, just tell you to shut it.

Larky - I've worked in some sort or environmental/conservation all my life and at a professional level in the last 7 years. I consider myself an environmentalist (my profession is Environmental Specialist) both at work and out of it. I'm not ignoring climate change, or pollution, or waste, but look how many people humps you've got up with the style of your argument and we are already the converted!

[drowningbitbybit]

No but without searious action of the next 100 years or so Mr Elephant will not be sitting in the corner he will be floating, .... But if you dont care about the environment continue your selfish lifestyle

Er, actually I was supporting your argument.

Perhaps before you come on here and start abusing everyone else, you might want to get to know a few people and see whether they're actually doing anything.

Phil, for instance, is studying marine biology and is big into marine ecology.

Me, I was a member of SAS for years (before you even started surfing, I'd hazard a guess? ) until I moved over to Australia. Im now in the process of setting up a local 'chapter' of SurfRiders Foundation (the Oz equivalent of SAS).

I'm absolutely fanatical about getting people out of their cars, and I cycle to work and back every day (an hour and a bit's cycling in total). I also get involved in the Critical Mass cycling group.

However, I do surf. Which means travel. Hence the elephant in the corner.

Please dont preach to people on here. It doesnt make you any friends or further your argument.
Holier than thou is not a good position to argue from.

[Nettinoo]

Quick Pol

I didn't say that anyone was being selfish. where did I say that? And everyone else who seems to think that people are preaching, maybe you need to get off the fence and make people listen. Maybe your quiet way isn't the right way. People listen to people that show passion and conviction in their beliefs. Why is your way the right way to do it and why is my way wrong. I'm experienced in my area too and i have a right to say what ever I like. If you don't like what I have to say ignore it !

[larky]

Firstly guys no rules on preaching on the website environmental or not. If you don't like the debate don't join in.

Secondly drowningbitbybit I'm sorry for the missunderstanding on the elephant in the corner read it quickly while working and responded incorrectly.

Thirdly work credentials aside as stated at the beginning of the debate I believe as surfers who use the enivronment we owe it to the environment that we enjoy to play in to look after it, or tommorrow it won't be there. Therefore we should lead the way for the rest of the planet. As Co2 is a factor someone needs to lead the progression on combating it why not surfers and the sport of surfing? Rip curl and Billabong are taking it seriously by offsetting the carbon footprints of fans and competitors that are attracked to the ASP tour events. Therefore if the industry leaders are making a stance why not the individuals?

Fourthly, I am passionate about the environment and debating it, if you have a better way of discussing this subject throw some light on the subject with your years of experience and wisdom but I would guess its the youth of today to take this challenge to tomorrow.

Lets stop attacking each other and discuss progressive ways forward. My orginal question was innocent and inquisitive I'm 19 and inexperienced, probably out of my depth but looking to use this for my degree. I wasn't trying to get peoples back up just asking some tough questions.

[drowningbitbybit]

maybe you need to get off the fence and make people listen.

Perhaps you and Larky need to consider the possibility that people here aren't sitting on the fence.
You're not the first people to notice that something's up.

[Hang11]

I live in one of the most beautiful places in the world.

I drive a 15 year old 2.8 litre turbo diesel 4wd.

Most of the places I surf don't have road access, so I have to use my 4wd to get to them, and usually squash a few small trees on the way.

I usually have to drive about 200km's to get a wave.

I guarantee I surf better waves than you do, with no crowds, more often.

So please keep living in Brighton and getting the bus to surf onshore shite with 300 other people, it means I don't have to share empty perfection with you

[Real Pol]

Quick Pol

I didn't say that anyone was being selfish. where did I say that? And everyone else who seems to think that people are preaching, maybe you need to get off the fence and make people listen. Maybe your quiet way isn't the right way. People listen to people that show passion and conviction in their beliefs. Why is your way the right way to do it and why is my way wrong. I'm experienced in my area too and i have a right to say what ever I like. If you don't like what I have to say ignore it !

When I said "you" I meant Larky. I was generalising about the preachy way of his argument. I was actually agreeing with you. I've been classed as the fun police too.

[Real Pol]

Quick Pol

And if you're going to rant at me get my name right eh?

[Phil]

i have a degree in environmental science so i guess im qualified to give an opinion having studied the subject for 3 years, even though most of what i studied was marine specific, i still covered alot of the environmental issues.

when i started the course i was all about making a difference and saving the planet, but now after completing the course i realise it will never happen. We can try to reduce are carbon footprint we can sit around and create goals and targets to reduce carbon emissions, we can invest in green energy and try to develop alternative sources of fuel. But none of which will make a single bit of difference unless we deal with the underlying problem and you know what that is.................... us the human population.

There is only a finite amount of resources on this planet to sustain our existence each human being needs a certain amount of those resources to survive. We have excided that so we are now consuming at a rate that is unsustainable. (ie Mass deforestation, collapse of fish stocks. even the consumption of water.) So unless we deal with the root of the problem then it’s unlikely anyone can make a difference and no politician will ever address this problem as it would be an ethical as well as political disaster, so i guess the thing to do is to wait for us to ether run out of oil and be forced to change or some disease significantly reduces the human population.

Option 1
i can carry on living my life and try to make a difference without sacrificing the quality of my life and the things i love and let fate decide what happens to us.

Option 2
i could give everything up grow fruit and veg, give up my car and other luxuries and make huge sacrifices to my quality of life just to remain carbon natural. I would lose out on catching waves in other countries because i chose not to fly to save carbon emissions and you know what? If i chose this route i would probably die knowing all that i had sacrificed was in vain and i could have been getting sick barrels in indo and making the most of my life, so i choose option 1

[phillwilson]

Phill,

you have totally nailed my perspective.

I find it fantastically reassuring that someone else (with actual credentials) has done the weighing up of the knowns and unknowns and has come to a very similar summing up of the situation as it stands.

its not so much a resignation to the way things are, its having the understanding that as much as we would like to believe are are in some era of "hyper-evolution" where we are all super civilised...caring..helping the fellow man..non judging etc etc..

that underneath this politically correct veneer we are animals and we as a collective species are defined by our over arching characteristics, which as the moment seems to be that we are addicted to consuming the things that make OUR (and the lives of those around us directly) lives better.

as times go by and pickings grow slim Im sure these animal qualities will b stregnthened..survival of the fittest etc.

I once got thrown out of a lecture (fine art actually) for debating the point that on SOME LEVEL appeals to help the starving in some places in Africa is un-natural...my point being that if you remove the emotion we obviously connect to helping other around us...

that charitable outside influences are effectively keeping a life support plugged in to what seems in many ways existence in a doomed environment.

if we didnt have the media to tell of such things, these people would die out or move on to new land, however aid keeps them alive, therefore their own biology leans them towards keeping on having children therefore keeping the problem in motion.

I know this is getting well off topic, but I do find it VERY interesting as it relates to the core of our humanity where Logic rubs up against Social and Innate caring.