Males, 18-30 years old, that for voted for Bush...

[Ironside]

If you're between 18 and 30, a male of sound mind and body and you voted for Bush, I ask you...

Are you willing to take your induction physical now, to help our troops out with Bush's war in Iraq.

Or is that only for somebody else to do for you?
Yes, I served my country. In the Army!

Why won't you?

Jus' curious...

[surf patrol]

I cannot believe that he has been voted back in after the last 4 years. You yanks eh

[Ironside]

I'm ashamed of America for that.
I voted for John Kerry.

Bush should be impeached, not re-elected!

[VaB]

For the record, Bush won by a very small margin- hopefully showing the rest of the world that almost 1/2 of us have a brain. Unfortunately, more than 1/2 of us don't.

-VaB

[Longy+Grom=Sweeto surfer]

You know if it was compolsary to vote, bush wouldn't have been realected, in oz we have to vote but not me im to young he he he he. What are you looking at punk????

[myfoothurts]

im 18 and i voted for bush. a lot of the people my age who voted for bush didnt base their vote on the war status. there are a number of moral issues that came into play this election and that's a big reason why I made the decision i did.

[Brent]

What, like gay marriage. Why is that such an "moral" issue for Americans?

Here is the deal in my country. About 2% of the adult population is gay (or "out" as they say) and, being a civilised country we're are about to allow gay civil union. Why? Here's the real reason...
Gay people do live together. Like it or not. They always have & always will. The accumulate assets, property, photo-albums, pets, joint purchases like cars etc and pension funds.

The problem is their status as a couple is not legally recognised. If you are a man & woman and live together here for more than 2 years you're as good as married under law.

But gay, nope, you can spend your whole life together, accumulate a home & all the trappings...and when you die even if you Will clearly states benefactor...your distant relatives or whoever have more claim on your assets than your lifelong partner...that is not fair.

Or the other things us hetros take for granted, like if you go into hospital your "partner" cannot sign releases, nor sign approval for treatment, nor sign organ donor forms & accept your possesions should you die....heck if you're admitted to intensive care or Trauma Center...they, being not family but a "friend" only, cannot even visit you without a relatives permission. How unfair is that. Imagine being treated like a second-class citizen your whole life. How much dignity is there??

You Americans are turning into bible bashing, right wing moralists. Specifically, how is allowing only about 2% of the population to share the same "rights" as you'll enjoy as a hetrosexual adult going to destroy the "fabric of your society"? How is the foundation of your society going to be eroded? when these people are a smaller minority than even the smallest racial group within your country...

Are you scared that as a result of this legislation whole lot of people will suddenly turn queer like Carson whats is name or something??

Like your president you're society is retrenching back to the 1950's, he now foolishly bases much of his foreign policy decisions now not on good diplomacy & tact...but on the bloody bible he's always bashing. To the increasing amusement of the rest of us in the civilised world.

What about all the new unseen legislation trashing your civil rights (the terrorism legislation), the obscenity that your country commits daily by holding "suspected" terrorists with no lawyers, right to trial...heck your country hasn't even got the guts to secure them on it's home soil...least the constitution gets a hold of your president for the crime.

So. answer my questions about gay civil unions will you? I am curious.

As our prime minister Helen Clark said famously last week. "Just because I choose to like Oranges it doesn't mean you shouldn't have the right to enjoy Apples"

Cheers..

[babyboarder89]

ive never really thought about the whole gay marriage issue before. but wow all that stuff is so wrong. you put that very well brent.
anyone know if gay marriage is legal in the uk (im not considering it, even if i was id b too young) just wondering, because it should be.

[Ironside]

im 18 and i voted for bush. a lot of the people my age who voted for bush didnt base their vote on the war status. there are a number of moral issues that came into play this election and that's a big reason why I made the decision i did.

I can respect that.

But, to me there is no bigger "moral issue" today than more than 1,100 Americans dying and another more than 8,000 injured, many losing limbs, for Bush's war of flawed allegations.

Bush's policies actually help me. I own a small business and am paying about $5,000 a year less in taxes because of it.

But, this isn't about me, me me. This is about America and ALL of her people. We need to look further than our own nose when we elect as President, and stop being so selfish.

myfoothurts, what are the "moral issues" that swayed you to Bush? What are the "moral issues" that you found more important than the slaughtering of our troops in Iraq, on stacked allegations?

Please, tell me.

[Brent]

And of course the same "moral issues" that keep more than 3000 people imprisioned indefinately in secret location jails (for the supposed really bad guys) & cuba prisons for the rest. No trial, no lawyers, no nothing. They are imprisioned for being suspected terrorists. They've never been convicted in any court. Your country is breaking the Geneva Convention by doing this, breaking United Nation protocol as well, not to mention trashing their civil rights which your country claims to put above everything else.

That's a good "moral issue" isn't it.

[Broosta]

I always stay out of talking politics usually as I have no interest in it nor understand most of it. But I have been reading this thread and its interesting reading. It made me think I should at least try to understand a bit about whats really going on with Bush and stuff, so the other night I watched Fahrenheit 9/11. Erm... eye opener or what .
I reckon its every american's duty to watch that film - especially those that voted for Bush! Actually the whole world should see it as it affects the whole world .

[Phil]

yeah allthough i think moore twists alot of trusths as well in that film you have to take what he says with a pinch of salt i guess, i sort of switched off half way through

[Ironside]

I took my 12 year old son to see it.
He's still trying to pick his jaw up!

[k mac]

my dad wanted to go see farenheight 9/11 he thought it was an action thriller staring george bush , what a tw*t

[myfoothurts]

What, like gay marriage. Why is that such an "moral" issue for Americans?

Here is the deal in my country. About 2% of the adult population is gay (or "out" as they say) and, being a civilised country we're are about to allow gay civil union. Why? Here's the real reason...
Gay people do live together. Like it or not. They always have & always will. The accumulate assets, property, photo-albums, pets, joint purchases like cars etc and pension funds.

The problem is their status as a couple is not legally recognised. If you are a man & woman and live together here for more than 2 years you're as good as married under law.

But gay, nope, you can spend your whole life together, accumulate a home & all the trappings...and when you die even if you Will clearly states benefactor...your distant relatives or whoever have more claim on your assets than your lifelong partner...that is not fair.

Or the other things us hetros take for granted, like if you go into hospital your "partner" cannot sign releases, nor sign approval for treatment, nor sign organ donor forms & accept your possesions should you die....heck if you're admitted to intensive care or Trauma Center...they, being not family but a "friend" only, cannot even visit you without a relatives permission. How unfair is that. Imagine being treated like a second-class citizen your whole life. How much dignity is there??

You Americans are turning into bible bashing, right wing moralists. Specifically, how is allowing only about 2% of the population to share the same "rights" as you'll enjoy as a hetrosexual adult going to destroy the "fabric of your society"? How is the foundation of your society going to be eroded? when these people are a smaller minority than even the smallest racial group within your country...

Are you scared that as a result of this legislation whole lot of people will suddenly turn queer like Carson whats is name or something??

Like your president you're society is retrenching back to the 1950's, he now foolishly bases much of his foreign policy decisions now not on good diplomacy & tact...but on the bloody bible he's always bashing. To the increasing amusement of the rest of us in the civilised world.

What about all the new unseen legislation trashing your civil rights (the terrorism legislation), the obscenity that your country commits daily by holding "suspected" terrorists with no lawyers, right to trial...heck your country hasn't even got the guts to secure them on it's home soil...least the constitution gets a hold of your president for the crime.

So. answer my questions about gay civil unions will you? I am curious.

As our prime minister Helen Clark said famously last week. "Just because I choose to like Oranges it doesn't mean you shouldn't have the right to enjoy Apples"

Cheers..

Thanks for the input Brent and id just like to say that i agree with you on some level. The problem is you're talking about two different things here. Gay marriages and gay civil unions are completely different things.

The term "marriage," in short, is defined by law as a 'legal union between a man and wife' and usually implies religious basis. (i.e. under God) Do i agree with gay marriages? No. Do i agree with gay civil unions? Of course! And like New Zealand, we are progressing towards the allowing of gay civil unions to take place (some states more than others).

You might ask, "what about the places which will never allow civil unions?" Well, gays can still enjoy the same rights "that us heteros take for granted." You mentioned something about property and how it gets distributed when you die. I think you are mistaking a Living WILL and a Living TRUST as the same thing. They are very different and if you read up on them, youll find that gays can leave everything they own to their lifelong partner. You also mentioned something about health care. A homosexual, or anyone for that matter, can fill out and obtain what is called a 'health care directive.' Through this, they can grant their parters the power to, in a nutshell, "step into their shoes" and legally "become them." They can make legal medical care decisions and even, yes, visit them in the hospital without having to ask permission from their mother. Some of the legal powers i mention above can also be granted through "power of attorney."

I will not impose my religious beliefs on those who bare to differ. However, those who aim to allow gay marriages, and are not part of any religious denomination, are imposing their beliefs on mine. It is these people who are, how you put it, "bible bashing." (Not me nor my president)

The sad truth is that homosexuality is still taboo in most parts of the world and even IF gay civil union is allowed, gays will still be treated as second class citizens. Hell, most minorities still are, even with equal rights. This is not America's problem but every individual's problem with tolerating others different than them.

I'm sad to hear all the trash talking on my country, but im hoping i can change your opinions about us. (Americans) I really think most of us let the mass media sway our opinions and even formulate our opinions about each other and sadly, bad news gets the best ratings.

-Just my 2 American cents.

[myfoothurts]

But, to me there is no bigger "moral issue" today than more than 1,100 Americans dying and another more than 8,000 injured, many losing limbs, for Bush's war of flawed allegations.

I assume you are talking about the war on Iraq? (am i right?) If so, do you not agree with us taking saddam out of power? i'd like to hear more of your point of view because the war was definitely running through my mind when i went to vote.

Regretably, we didnt find weapons of mass destruction, which angered me as well as you I'm sure. Yes, we found the ingredients to make them, but we didnt find fully assembled WOMDs. Some might argue "why would they have all the ingredients if they werent going to make them?" But i think that unless we found fully assembled weapons of mass destruction, we have no right to say Iraq was definitely hiding weapons of mass destruction.

Something throws me for a loop though. Before the US went into Iraq, the UN suspected Iraq of housing weapons of mass destruction and made means to conduct searches of saddam's facilities where they were suspected to be held. Saddam agreed to the searches BUT only if they told him exactly WHEN and WHERE they were going to inspect 2-3 weeks in advance.

If he had nothing to hide, why would he need such time to prepare for inspection? why would one need to "ready" their facilities for inspection? it really takes the element of surprise out of it doesnt it? imagine if a criminal was suspected of keeping a dead body in his house and he agreed to a police search BUT only if they would give him 2-3 weeks advanced notice. (enough time to dispose of the body or move it to another location you think?) Sure, saddam eventually agreed to surprise searches of his palaces, but this is after a years of knowing the UN was looking for them. could this have allowed him enough time to hide, move, or dismantle them? I don't know, something about it just doesnt add up.

If you, Ironside, or even anyone has any explainations for this, please share as i would really like to know your take on the matter.

But, this isn't about me, me me. This is about America and ALL of her people. We need to look further than our own nose when we elect as President, and stop being so selfish.

I completely agree! we need to stop being selfish when we vote for President. And i think a lot of the Americans did that this election. I heard many things about Kerry looking out for the middle and lower class more than Bush. if this is true, since the majority of the country is middle and lower class, dont you think they would have voted for Kerry if they were looking out for themselves?

myfoothurts, what are the "moral issues" that swayed you to Bush? What are the "moral issues" that you found more important than the slaughtering of our troops in Iraq, on stacked allegations?

I didnt say that moral issues were "more important" than our troops in Iraq. Sure, they were a big part in me voting for Bush, but the point i was trying to make in my first post is that my vote was not solely based on the war. With that in mind, i have 2 friends in the service. Both are soon being shipped out. I talked to one of them tonight and asked a lot of questions (about the possibility of the draft, the war, etc.) He told me that he joined because wanted to serve our country, no one made him do it, but he believes everyone should be able to live in a free country. He is proud to lay down his life for it.

-my 2 cents again. which in england is probably like .000000001 pounds =P

[hawaiiSUCKSexceptsurf]

"I'm sad to hear all the trash talking on my country, but im hoping i can change your opinions about us. (Americans) I really think most of us let the mass media sway our opinions and even formulate our opinions about each other and sadly, bad news gets the best ratings. "

excuse me sir but most americans trash talk about the president... trashing bush is not anti-american, its anti bush, just like when the democrats have their president in office he gets trash from the republicans. thats the purpose of a two party system.
rather than focusing on things like gay marriage, why dont we focus on getting universal healthcare, a nonpartisan issue. oh wait i guess it is, most republicans are either rich or have a good employer with insurance and they can afford to pay hospital bills.

[Brent]

Good comments Myfoothurts...

I do note that our government has been very carful to call it civil union all the way along....no mention of marriage even when pushed openly by the media. Nope, it's always gay UNION. I gather the purpose is to keep it quite seperate from hetro marriage.
The intent here is to offer gays same standing in all matters under law. Don't know how it would work in adoption/artifical insemination or other similar issues however.

Now, Marriage. I'm no anthropologist but I always believed marriage was around long before God. The Greeks married, as did Egyptians, then even had parties to celebrate just like us...I believed it was originally a civil ceremony between male & female to ensure the property owned by the male was (in the event of his untimely death - quite common back them) passed to his wife for safekeeping...and then passed legally on to his children on her death?? It was a way of legally creating & recording a family group for many diffenent purposes/reasons.

Marriage was then latched onto by the church in the early dark ages as it fitted in with it's long-term marketing strategy.

Anybody know for sure?? Curous now.

[Brent]

The reason why they never found WMD is they simply never existed. It was a cleverly crafted bluff by Saddam, to pump up his international profile & fear of him in the global community. It worked. He didn't even have real launch systems for conventions weapons, not unless you count Scuds :-)

Re making bombs: look up a book called "The anachists cookbook", it's all there, you can find enough fertiliser at any surburban garden shop, get some bleach & petrol on your way home at the supermarket & you're all set to make a bomb big enough to trash a major building (ah-la Oklahoma). Look hard enough (and desperately enough to save face...George) and you'll find the products to make WMD anywhere.

[myfoothurts]

"I'm sad to hear all the trash talking on my country, but im hoping i can change your opinions about us. (Americans) I really think most of us let the mass media sway our opinions and even formulate our opinions about each other and sadly, bad news gets the best ratings. "

excuse me sir but most americans trash talk about the president... trashing bush is not anti-american, its anti bush, just like when the democrats have their president in office he gets trash from the republicans. thats the purpose of a two party system.
rather than focusing on things like gay marriage, why dont we focus on getting universal healthcare, a nonpartisan issue. oh wait i guess it is, most republicans are either rich or have a good employer with insurance and they can afford to pay hospital bills.

I was mainly directing that comment towards people from other countries on this forum. (who, due to the fact that their country is more beautiful than ours, are enjoying life day by day and dont simply have the time to read all of the ins and outs of "Yank politics" =P)

But now that you bring it up, are you sure about this? or is this mainly what you hear? remember bush got the MAJORITY of the popular vote. meaning.. most americans voted for him. granted, hes not perfect and even i have my disagreements with what hes doing in certain areas concerning our country. However, there is a difference between criticism and trash talk.

Watching the news and MTV and listening to the radio the past year, all ive heard was, in a nutshell, "kerry is the answer to this horrible president bush." not to mention propagandist michael moore's (which i will talk about eventually) Farenheight 9/11 coming out. media media media. on nov 2nd i was almost SURE that kerry was going to win!

I'm not disagreeing with you, but it's definitely a topic we should think about.

p.s. im going to hawaii this summer. im looking for a good time all around, but it's good to know the surf is good. =P