Can we practice rail to rail speed in whitewater?

[LillyBee]

Hi, (new here)

Can we practice speed generation (rail to rail and/or tic tac) in the whitewater?
Does the board move since there's no wall to dig the rail?

What about other fun and useful things, aside from popup and carving left/right?

The waves will be too out of my league for a lot of months now (big, rough and closing out - also beach break, so complete chaos, not one single wave is the same and comes from the same place, I can't keep up), but I still need to surf something regularly.
Foams may be my best bet.

I struggle a lot with generating speed. I know what i have to do, but the waves I surf are usually short rides (close out fast) which doesn't give me consistent time to practice, repeat or correct and get better. So, sometimes I nail it, many times I don't.

I've been thinking about practicing speed and other things in the foams, but...am I going to waste time?
anyone tried it?

Thank you

(I surf a hybrid fish 5'8; My height: 5'7 and weight: roughly 116lbs)

[oldmansurfer]

What generates speed is not the tic tacking. It is the up and down movement using gravity to generate speed. The amount of resistance from the board interface to the water is greater than any forward momentum developed by tic tacking in flat water or you would see surfers tic tacking out to the lineup like you do with foil surfers. On a mushy wave there needs to be up and down motion such as a foam climb which may be beyond a beginners skill. But it's very difficult for any surfer to generate speed on a mushy wave. Once you loose down the line momentum on a mushy wave most surfers will just kickout.

The single most useful thing to learn is a good projection bottom turn. This is a turn that generates down the line speed and sets up the next turn. It also gets you back up to the top of the wave where you can use gravity to generate speed. For all surfers the single most important maneuver is the bottom turn (in my opinion). Besides that learning to get out through the surf, learning to catch a wave , learning to read the wave and learning to pop up which all need to be done before you make a bottom turn. But a bottom turn is what sets up all the other maneuvers you might want to do.

[oldmansurfer]

One thing to practice on a mushy wave is from a position of standing up suddenly drop into a squat while making a turn to go back up the wave extending your legs through the turn and then immediately after turn back down the wave. This will generate speed down the line which most likely you can't do but if you can get the turn down it is the technique to use on a wave that has a wall left to turn on but you are stalled

[oldmansurfer]

If you skateboard you might think you can generate speed by going side to side but it really isn't the side to side motion that generates speed. You are falling forward to one side then bring the skateboard under you as you fall then you turn and fall forward the other way and bring the board under you. This is quite similar to surfing except that on flat water that doesn't generate enough speed to keep the board moving which to keep it from sinking back down into the water. You need to have gravity helping which requires getting above the flat part of the wave and onto the vertical part.

[waikikikichan]

I struggle a lot with generating speed. I know what i have to do, but the waves I surf are usually short rides (close out fast) which doesn't give me consistent time to practice, repeat or correct and get better. So, sometimes I nail it, many times I don't.

I've been thinking about practicing speed and other things in the foams, but...am I going to waste time?
anyone tried it?

The whitewater is the area where the wave has already given up its energy. There is really nothing to push off of. Tic-Tac's will just be wiggles. You can't really go rail to rail since you are mainly on the flat bottom of the board going straight to the beach.

To learn to generate speed, FIRST you need to learn TRIM. To go along the waves face no faster or slower than what it is. Then you can learn to break trim to rise up and fall, resist and relax. That is not possible in whitewater.

(I surf a hybrid fish 5'8; My height: 5'7 and weight: roughly 116lbs)

What board(s) did you ride before your current 5'8" hybrid fish ?

[PipeDreams]

I would reccomend trying to find some shelter and push yourself to not push whitewater, as said above tic tacking does not really work to generate speed, its all about going top to bottom of the wave (or just the power zone if the wave is larger). You cannot practice rail surfing either, as on a whitewater wave you only have the flats and the whitewater, and practicing your rail game in the flats will not improve your surfing, and is not possible on the whitewater. Just keep practicing, you will over time learn to read the ocean and be able to understand the water more, therefore increasing your wave count and giving you the understanding to surf the conditions that you are describing, but surfing takes time. Enjoy the process and don't expect it all to happen overnight, need to walk before you can run. Find shelter or surf the smaller days and get out back, catch green waves and figure them out, then learn to trim, then generate speed.
Good luck with your progression!

[LillyBee]

Thank you.
My question isn't so much about "how to speed" (I still have to read what others are saying in other topics)
it's more about what things can be practiced (aside from takeoffs and trims and carves) in the whitewater?

I know how to trim and take off and ride a wave (for a short time). I can even bottom turn (though I haven't done it in a really long time, because I'm obsessed(?) with getting horizontal speed and when I get in the water I sometimes try to not attempt the H speed, but I can't resist)

I don't surf big waves and generating speed in small soft waves is hard.

I do move, but not like I see good surfers doing it. They really do accelerate in mushy small surf then pull some floaters, aerials, snaps to finish it, whatever. Horizontal speed straight, fast and long. That's what I'd like to accomplish.

I probably should try a bottom turn after one or two pumps, instead of trying to accelerate horizontally for too long. But as I said, I see guys doing it, just speeding like crazy the entire wave...and I'm obsessed with achieving that.

I sometimes can feel that speed with a short rail to rail, or a tic tac, other times I don't, (I think it's my feet positioning and stance, sometimes I get it right, sometimes I miss it. That's what I want to practice in stable controllable conditions)

But because I don't have too many of those opportunities to repeat over and over to perfect it, I was wondering if this could be done also in whitewater, since that's guaranteed to be consistently there to practice practice practice without any disturbance.

I don't skate. I don't like to fall. I tried a few times, fell once, and my immediate thought besides the "ouch" was: "I could get injured and not be able to surf for a long time!"
But since a skateboard moves rail to rail on a flat surface, wouldn't it work too in the flat water? Don't skimboarders do it (I have no idea, just asking)?

Or, if it doesn't work, what other interesting things can we do in the whitewater (besides take off, trim and carve, those are the only things I see people doing) so we can practice something fun and useful when the surf is bad?[/b]

[waikikikichan]

I can even bottom turn (though I haven't done it in a really long time, because I'm obsessed(?) with getting horizontal speed and when I get in the water I sometimes try to not attempt the H speed, but I can't resist)

Horizontal speed straight, fast and long. That's what I'd like to accomplish.

I probably should try a bottom turn after one or two pumps, instead of trying to accelerate horizontally for too long. But as I said, I see guys doing it, just speeding like crazy the entire wave...and I'm obsessed with achieving that.

So how do you from the nose pointed to the shore/beach to going horizontal along the waves face ? Answer: the BOTTOM TURN. The bottom turn sets up everything else after that, pumping, cutbacks, even noserides and barrels. Every maneuver in surfing depends on a good bottom turn.

[waikikikichan]

I sometimes can feel that speed with a short rail to rail, or a tic tac, other times I don't, (I think it's my feet positioning and stance, sometimes I get it right, sometimes I miss it. That's what I want to practice in stable controllable conditions)

But because I don't have too many of those opportunities to repeat over and over to perfect it, I was wondering if this could be done also in whitewater, since that's guaranteed to be consistently there to practice practice practice without any disturbance.

If you don't have proper feet positioning and stance, and the ability to pick up your feet and move it around to adjust balance, pressure and torque, you should not be on such a small board. More so if your Hybrid Fish has a swallow tail.

Again I ask you, "What board(s) did you ride before your current 5'8" hybrid fish ?"

Stable controllable conditions ? The white water is the most Turbulent Chaotic area of the wave. Yes is it consistent, consistently disturbed water that is NOT surfable.

[oldmansurfer]

Accelerating horizontally? Other than getting into the right place on the wave you need to go up and down the face to gain speed and how do you get to the right place? Bottom turn and aim for it. Skim boarders do a running start and then use the wave and not a flat crumbling wave. I try to do a floater or foam climb on days when it closes out or try to get tubed on the closeout section. That is set up by a bottom turn. On days when it's small and crumbly I try to see how long I can ride the wave by positioning myself into the exactly right spot to keep the board moving forward both on the wave and on the board. This requires aiming the board by trimming and knowing what the wave is going to do ahead if not by the shape then by previous waves then getting to the point with the most power. But if others are doing airs then it's very likely you can do more than just ride a crumble.

[LillyBee]

Again I ask you, "What board(s) did you ride before your current 5'8" hybrid fish ?"

Stable controllable conditions ? The white water is the most Turbulent Chaotic area of the wave. Yes is it consistent, consistently disturbed water that is NOT surfable.

Before I was using a normal shortboard 5'11.

It is turbulent, true, hard to stay stable, but it's always there for sure. Good waves are not a sure thing.

I've been surfing for many years (on and off). I recently moved to a different place and here the waves are different from where I used to surf. They are mushier and softer, they're not hollow enough and when it's big, to me at least, it's impossible to surf because I don't have stamina and strength to deal with it, but it's not just me, it's almost always empty in the winter because it's a wild beach break, it gets rough! The rips, the size and the chaos are not for the faint of heart.

So I'm adjusting to what I have and I also want to do specific things like that: fast long horizontal speed for the short duration these waves have. So I can surf the smaller days and have fun. Shortboarding, because that's how I like. I don't like longboarding. Not even watching.

The hybrid fish was made by a reputable shaper, because the waves here are, as I said, softer and mushier. I wanted a real fish, he advised me to go for a hybrid that was suitable for other days too. I took time to adjust to it, it required more paddling strength, but I did it and I have no problem catching waves with it, except when the tide is too high and the waves don't get hollow at all.

I was just asking if there was something I could do in the whitewater (other than the basics: take-off and trim, because I'm not learning or struggling with that).

According to you, rail to rail, like skating, it's impossible. OK. Fine.
What about other things?

Do I feel embarrassed if I have to go play in the whitewater? Yes.
But if it's that or staying home the whole winter, I take a chance. I don't care. If I can have fun and learn something fun or useful, for when the surf gets surfable again, why not?

But if nothing is doable aside from those basics (take off, trim, carve) I'll review my options. But waiting for a good random day to surf it's crazy.

[LillyBee]

On days when it's small and crumbly I try to see how long I can ride the wave.

Exactly. That's what I try to do too. Pumping rail to rail. Which I have to perfect. And because right now I don't have small waves to try it, I was asking if doing rail to rail to perfect feet positioning, stance and movements would be possible in the flat whitewater. If not, then ok.

[Geezer]

Honestly, if the ocean is crap, waves are onshore and closing out, I wouldnt surf. Whitewater isn’t surfing, especially on a fish. Surfing is 90% paddling and fitness; I would get out and paddle thru the chop and build muscle and fitness so on good days I would in effect be able to surf better. Id also find a way out back at your local and ride closeouts, bottom turning into the wave face thru the back of the wave. Would keep your timing, fitness and pop up in tune. I personally would and do surfskate when the ocean doesnt cooperate. You can practice the things you wish you could practice in the water on dry land and is the answer you’re looking for. Buy a carver/yow/smoothstar, pads and helmet and go slow. Surfskating will offer all the benefits of riding simulation that you can get short of being on a wave.

Anyway, short answer is no, there is nothing you can do on your feet in whitewater that will benefit you as a surfer beyond your first weeks on a foamie.

Other thing is that if you want to go fast and far on small waves and are struggling, get a bigger board. I would bet money that a few more inches and liters will do wonders, and when that bigger board starts ro feel awkward and bulky, go back to your little board. That and work on your pop up on dry land; the quicker you are to your feet in balance with correct foot positioning the faster you can get in the wave and the better you’ll be able to choose rhe best lines.

[oldmansurfer]

On days when it's small and crumbly I try to see how long I can ride the wave.

Exactly. That's what I try to do too. Pumping rail to rail. Which I have to perfect. And because right now I don't have small waves to try it, I was asking if doing rail to rail to perfect feet positioning, stance and movements would be possible in the flat whitewater. If not, then ok.

If you are good enough you might be able to do one rail to rail turn as I described above squatting suddenly and turning. The drop in weight adds push to the board which when turning translate to speed down the line and you are in compression mode so coming out of turn you then extend your legs and immediately go back to compression off the top turn. If you can do that then maybe more will happen but it is a lot of work to keep it going on a mushy wave. No need to pump on small mushy days in my opinion just trim. Of course then maybe we are thinking of different waves

[LillyBee]

Anyway, short answer is no, there is nothing you can do on your feet in whitewater that will benefit you as a surfer beyond your first weeks on a foamie.

. Ok, this was my question (not the how to). thank you.

My question was: Can we practice (pumping) rail to rail in the whitewater, like we do with a skate, but in the flat foamy water? If not, what other things can we do aside from pop up trim carve in the whitewater for those days when it's impossible to get in?

Nothing. OK.

I don't have any problems with my shortboard, I already surfed longer boards in the past, I even have a 5'10 groveler that I only use once or twice in the worst summer days, when the addiction kicks in so hard that I have to go even if it's ankle high.
I'm not learning to take off, to stand up, to trim or carve, I did that many years ago, I'm not trying to be good at longboarding, because I don't even like longboarding, it's not the same as shortboarding so why would I work on a different sport if the skills needed are completely different?
I use a shortboard, a hybrid fish, I know why I chose that board and I've been doing fine.

I'm adapting to new conditions with the time I have: small mushy waves almost all the summer and lots of closeouts.

My main goal when I moved here was to learn small wave skills on a shortboard. Shortboarding small waves is a thing, it's doable, it just requires practice and know how. But my point with this topic is not to find a "how to", although I'm reading your tips and I will take them into consideration when the waves return.

My point is that: right now and for a few more long months, there are no surfable waves for my physical ability, it's too big, chaotic, with strong rips, I'm a woman, I work mixed day and night shifts, and I'm also not a spring chicken anymore...) so I was asking what tricks and other fun stuff could I do if the only thing I have for sure is whitewater. while waiting for better days?

Whitewater isn’t surfing

I know. It doesn't make me proud but if I could find something to do when it's impossible to get in...why not?

Because, answering your other suggestion

Surfskating will offer all the benefits of riding simulation that you can get short of being on a wave

I don't like it, I tried it before and I don't like the idea of falling and getting hurt. I can't even afford the luxury of breaking my bones.

ride closeouts,

yes, this is something that I also have to start working on. But as I said, I became very obsessed with getting that line speed first, and many times I keep telling myself "don't do the pumping", but as soon as I catch a wave I think "just this one"...and then I can't stop trying. I will definitely have to change my mind. It became an obsession.

get a bigger board...when that bigger board starts ro feel awkward and bulky

Already did, years ago. And I already used my bulky 5'10 to practice pumping, but it's not the same, it's heavy. So I stick to my hybrid 5'8, because it's lighter and very maneuverable.

Nothing other than pop up trim carve? OK.
I'll see what other waves are forming close to the shore and review my list of things I can work on, like those closeouts or other fun stuff.
thank you

[BoMan]

Practice kicking out of your white water ride. Weight the fins and whip your board parallel to the beach.

[oldmansurfer]

Good one. While maybe not fun it is a skill you can learn to kickout through the whitewater. On a short board you would bury the inside rail and try to point the board out to the break. In small whitewater just try to go through the whitewater but in larger whitewater point the board out and push the board into the wave and dive out into the wave right next to the board. Of course make sure there is no one inside of you when doing this.

[LillyBee]

That gave me an idea to try.

[Geezer]

Was looking for this clip for another thread. Clear illustration of the futility of side to side wiggles vs correct pumping up & down the wave.


Note the bottom turn, the first pump. Without that he’s jist wiggling. The horizontal speed you can clearly see is just a series of bottom turns linked together; he pushes off the turn then extens to the top of the wave to get a downhill run at the next bottom turn. It won’t work without a waveface you can surf top to bottom….. thats where speed comes from.



https://www.instagram.com/p/CKh69uZnyxl ... VlOGU2MWU=

[oldmansurfer]

Sometimes I do a sideways foam climb when the wave is small and there is a foot or two of the wave below the whitewater that is still a wave face sort of I turn up into the whitewater so my board is parallel to the beach and stop there. My board gets pushed sideways and the fins will grab causing the back of the board to hold back while the front goes forward. I have only done it in that one situation which doesn't often occur but over the years I have done it multiple times. It's very exciting and fun but not sure if you can do it (safely)