Intermediate getting hung up

[surferbee]

Hi all, I'm hoping someone out there can help with a technique question. I've been surfing for about 6 years (once or twice a week on average) and I would say that I'm a solid intermediate. But there are a couple of issues that keep coming up for me. The biggest one is that often find myself getting hung up on top of the wave when entering and really having to push the nose into the wave to drop in. I've surfed close to a dozen different boards - mostly funshapes, but ranging from 5'9 twin fish to 8'6" mini longboard. During my last session I was surfing a 6'4" simmons (only third time out with it) in clean, sloped shoulder-high waves. Longboarders were killing it. Shortboarders were getting in on it. I was mostly getting hung up. When I slid further forward, the nose would just dip into the face at the top of the wave. When I slid further back, I felt like the wave just rolled under me. I'm 5'2, 130lbs (and 42 years old) so that board should have plenty of volume for me (~47 liters). Maybe too much? It's a mystery to me. Any thoughts or advice?

[Big H]

Go deeper and catch steeper.

[oldmansurfer]

Perhaps you need to paddle one or two more strokes before you popup. Or maybe you are pulling back a bit when you popup? You need to commit to the drop. Hard to say ....position? paddling? technique? Could be any of them

[RinkyDink]

I'm a beginnermediate and I'm having the same problem. Somehow my popups are just not working for me anymore. I'm surfing bigger waves now and I find myself on top of the wave trying to push the front of the board over the ledge so I can get into the wave. It works well at times, but there are also times when I end up kind of air dropping my takeoff. One of those steep takeoffs blew out my knee. I think my problem is that I'm just too slow in my popup and that's because my back and arms are still a bit weak.

It has taught me to position myself for takeoffs, though. This means I have to paddle toward a wave until I'm in the takeoff sweet spot, then I turn my log around, wait for the wave to approach (I used to start paddling too soon), and then get a good four or five paddle strokes in before the wave picks me up. The power I get into those paddle strokes really helps getting into the wave, but they also sap my arm strength and I end up slow poking my popup. I'm beginning to get my takeoff positioning right, but I still take a few on the head when I mistime it. I think I need to go back to practing dry land popups because I'm not visualizing my popups right when I take off. I sort of see popups as like getting a golf swing right.

[dtc]

Probably you aren't paddling fast enough; the water being sucked up the face of the wave is pushing you up to the lip. Could be for the reasons old man says or just too slow...

Also look up 'breaking the ledge' (although a lot of the answers on the web are not exactly very clarifying)

[surferbee]

Thanks everyone. Super helpful. Especially DTC's bit about 'breaking the ledge'. I found a few other posts online where that concept gets talked about in more detail and echos some of the other advice here: paddle harder, paddle more than you think you should to break through the top of the wave. Also, on bigger days, I'm definitely shoulder hopping and not dropping in at the peak or deep enough at times. Is it also possible that too much volume in a board can prevent you from breaking the ledge? I know more volume should make paddling easier, but can it also work against you on the drop?

[oldmansurfer]

I surf very high volume funguns and have no problems taking a drop but I don't shoulder hop on bigger days and in fact it is often impossible to shoulder hop (unless you have a longboard) at the breaks I surf at on bigger days. You however don't get hung up you just don't catch the wave at all. I sometimes sort of get hung up at the top of a wave at times but it really isn't a problem for me as I put extra pressure on my front foot and it quickly fixes the problem.

[BoMan]

You need to paddle one or two more strokes before you popup....You need to commit to the drop.

Good advice! For me, catching waves is about preparation. Training in a pool gets me strong enough to take the extra strokes and have confidence to popup when it's scary.

When I stop swimming, I can't catch the waves early, my pop-up wobbles and I feel like a newb. Sometimes I wish surfing was like riding a bike!

[dtc]

Volume and wave catching isn't a simple issue. Small groveller boards with high vol in small packages help you catch small waves but if the wave is too big then you will often get squirted over the back. But big wave boards, like guns, are 8-10ft long so high volume, but narrow and pin tailed etc.

So volume as a single measure is actually more or less useless without knowing everything else about the board.

And the wave - jacking up fast breaking vs fat high tide or point break creates different outcomes for the same board

[oldmansurfer]

In my opinion volume only makes it easier to catch waves. If you had 2 boards with the same design but different thickness the thicker one will be easier to catch waves with.

[surferbee]

Small groveller boards with high vol in small packages help you catch small waves but if the wave is too big then you will often get squirted over the back.

Yeah, I think this matches my own personal experience as well. Nearly all of my boards are some variation of a high-volume board with a wider outline and low-entry rocker. As you say, dtc, they're great in smaller suffer but get squirted out the back in bigger surf. I can take out my 8'6" performance long board on bigger days and catch waves no problem. But, when I try to get a smaller high-volume board in on the same waves, I feel like I often get pushed back over the top. The exception is point breaks where the peak is breaking more predictably and I feel comfortable dropping in deeper and on a more critical part of the wave. I guess that's why everyone else in the water is on pointy short boards with plenty of rocker on those other days. Maybe it's time to add to the quiver...

[oldmansurfer]

Sometimes where I surf the shortboarders have problems but my high volume fungun can catch the waves. In my opinion a board with less volume won't help you. Getting comfortable dropping in deeper will help you. However the more the merrier so get one and tell us how it works.

[surferbee]

Yeah, that makes sense. I agree with you, oldmansurfer, that the solution isn't simply less volume, but rather a high volume board that's more adapted to the wave type. I think one of my issues has been trying to get a groveler or low-rocker egg/funboard into peakier waves when I should probably be surfing a shortboard or hybrid with less girth but a good amount of volume and a bit more nose rocker to make the steeper drops. My hope is that will give me the ability (and confidence) to make more critical drops while also being less likely to get squirted out the back. That, and paddling harder, longer. Up until now, I've pretty much assumed that volume alone would get the job done, and then I get frustrated when I can't break the ledge and drop in as consistently in all conditions.

[oldmansurfer]

There are ways to avoid pearling on boards with little rocker. Lots of beginners think they pearl because they have a longboard with little rocker. but it is mostly technique that makes you pearl on a longboard. Longboarders surf Pipeline and other steep breaks without pearling (much). I used to surf long ago on a shortboard. After quitting for 12 years I restarted and got a big wave gun that was a 9'6" narrow thin pintail. It was so thin I could duck dive it. It caught waves pretty well but then I ran into the wife of the guy who shaped all my boards before and told her I re-started surfing and she suggested I get a used long board her husband shaped that would be perfect for me. So I got a 9'6" longboard. It didn't seem to catch any more waves than the gun but it did catch them much easier. So I wasn't catching waves that I would have missed with the other board but it paddled into the waves much easier. The pearling problem was the same for both boards even though the longboard had little nose rocker compared to the gun. I learned to do several things that avoided pearling, first the basic drop of leaning forward to get down the wave then back to bottom turn. It's partially leaning and partially moving the board to under your weight as you get to the bottom. Then there is paddling at an angle then there is angling after the popup and pushing the inside rail into the wave after the popup. Lastly I learned to stomp the tail if I see the nose of the board going underwater. I rode big steep waves with the longboard and mostly pearled in the same situation that I do now which is when the board leaves the water in a beyond vertical drop. I have to say that with the funguns I don't worry about pearling as much and I don't know why maybe I fell for the longboard pearling myth. My latest fungun has very little rocker similar to a longboard in fact my longboard has more tail rocker but the nose rockers are almost identical. It rarely pearls too.

[surferbee]

I honestly can't remember the last time I pearled on my longboard, even in overhead surf. I do all the things you mentioned, plus I can get moving pretty quickly on that board. But I pearled something fierce on my simmons on a break where there was nothing but shortboards in the water, and it was on a wave that I thought was a lock - big steep drop, already committing to a tight bottom turn, eyes wide open and looking ahead to a beautiful green wall in front of me - then BAM! the nose bit into the bottom transition right on the turn. This wasn't like, "Ooops, I messed up and pearled." This was like, "I've got this." then wham!

On the longboard, I would have made that bottom turn no problem, but I also would have angled out a little more. I think my Bing Dharma would have handled it too, even though I've also suffered on some late drops with it. Isn't that what nose rocker is ultimately for - to keep the front of the board out of the water? Shifting weight and angling more definitely helps with flatter rocker boards, but I think I've also been trying to compensate by surfing further from the peak when it's more critical. Yeah, I could just resolve to only take out my longboard, but wouldn't a high-volume board w/ more nose rocker allow me to surf a shorter, more maneuverable board in bigger surf? I'm not really looking to surf a big gun in huge surf, just something fun that can can be surfed top to bottom and occasionally handle peaky waves with steeper drops.

[oldmansurfer]

I am currently surfing a 7'6" funboard with a pointy nose and a general design like a shortboard called an Average Joe. It has less rocker than my longboard and it's 24 inches wide and very thick with a blunt rounded tail. It drops in very well on steep waves up to double overhead, it is a little more loose but that just means it turns quicker. I haven't gotten it out in surf bigger than double overhead but it works really well in waist to head high also. It might be more rocker would help you but it isn't necessary. I can ride my 8 foot fungun in head high very quick and steep tubing waves and take off deeper than the shortboarders. I think because I learned on the highly rockered 8 foot board my skills may have increased enough to give me confidence on a board with no rocker. Anyway my point is that it isn't the board but the way you are using it or maybe the wave. It is likely that another board will be easier to keep from pearling but once you get more skill it won't matter too much what board you ride, it won't pearl .(much) In the area I surf regularly there is backwash sometimes and I sometimes pearl when I am taking a drop and a backwash hits lifting the wall up making it instantly steep and my board loses contact with the water and I go straight down. It doesn't matter what board I am using. If I can see the backwash coming I will push the inside rail into the wave and might make the drop. I would normally push the inside rail into the wave if I am taking a steep drop but because it wasn't steep till the backwash hit I didn't do it already.

[Big H]

Poked around and found this from a shaper and his take on the subject.....thought provoking....

ron wrote:
I'm hoping to clear something up: the issue at hand addresses the effect of paddling into a good wave on boards that have you floating higher or lower in the water. I've noted some references to the issue in threads that concern themselves with float vs volume, etc. I am more interested in the practical effect that occurs when you are paddling into a good, steep swell on boards that either float you more or less.

I'm only questioning the effect in boards 5'10' to 6'3' and have noted floatier, wider boards sometimes get hung up in the lip on steeper waves when very low volume boards, regardless of shape, get in easier. Could be the paddler, could be the board. I've queried this and haven't gotten a consensus, although there must be a correct answer.

Any thoughts?


Hi Ron,

Your findings are right on. Years ago we found the same thing happening: Some thin "sinky" shortboards paddled better than boards with more volume and it made no sense. About that time I was working with a guy who owned fin system company and he was good friends with Al Merrick. Turned out that Merrick was also seeing the same thing happening. The guy I was working with was a good surfer, strong paddler, but a bigger guy, about 6'5" and 230 lbs at the time. He said to me, "George, I'm a pretty good paddler, I'm getting older but, out at Rincon the other day little kids on tiny chip boards were out-paddling me up the point, I don't get it..."

Long story short, we found that there is a "bad waterline" or "bad volume" where a board will do horribly in spite of more volume. One EITHER side of this volume, the boards paddled well. That is, a smaller board paddled better and a much larger board (of course) paddled better. My friend got so into it that he tested several boards across short "courses" both in flat water and the ocean...

...the board that worked badly for him was one that his friend had shaped (because he thought, "I'm getting older, make a slightly bigger board,") something similar to a "Speed Egg" which was gaining popularity at the time. I shaped a few boards for him and we reduced the size but not quite down to his original shortboard before he got the egg, and sure enough, he paddled faster on most of them. I concluded that there was both a "bad waterline" and a "good waterline." Problem was this waterline varied from one surfer to the other. We hand-shaped mostly back then, so VOLUME was not a viable/reliable number to use yet, but we knew that a smaller board could get going quicker than some boards SLIGHTLY larger than it, and of course boards MUCH LARGER would do likewise.

In some ways back then, the "Speed Egg" was a death sentence. I remember so many people going that direction and their surfing rarely improved what you would think it should. I wonder how many had that choice (either by their own or by their shaper) become the unbeknownst reason they got worse and discouraged. Surfing can be so much about confidence. The "Fun Board" really wasn't for some I guess...

We never located the right waterline location in a good way, but the water surface kind of hit between the board and stomach/chest of the paddler when the boards did poorly. You could "swim" a shorter board faster with the right engagment/technique. Added to that, a smaller board can get through breaking waves much easier, but we just looked at the paddle and wave catching ability.

Nowadays I mostly machine my boards, and I get pretty accurate volume numbers. For me, I seem to do well with 32L, but around the mid-high 30's I bog a bit. Higher than that like on my big cruisers and guns, I paddle very fast and fairly quickly.

It got even more complicated than that, we found that some big wave guns would catch waves poorly, and this had to deal with volume distribution through the length of the board. Thicker tails got "kicked up" by the wave giving a little "boost" to drop in with. BUT in big waves a lot a tail volume can be a killer, which implies a balance. In small waves we found the volume distribution was also important, same reason: not enough tail volume relative to middle volume can bog. Paddler position could compensate a little but the right combo of volume and position went noticibly better.

I went through a TON of boards that year, over 60 for myself and quite a few for some other guys.

So, in my opinion a choice can be made. Go even higher in volume to "get through the sound barrier" or reduce volume a bit and count on engaging in some rigorous (but productive) paddling.

Hope this helps,

George


George continues:

Sorry to say bro but there are too many variables. A lot is subjective. A lot is "art." I liken your request to telling

someone to give the formula for how much salsa I will like on my fish taco... Here is why.

First, the waterline level during paddling, where it "hits" along the board and along the paddler's body, seemed

to be the most important factor. Well, this begs the question, what shape? what person? how is their body

shaped? what is the paddling style? and the list goes on and on... So formulas to get "it" is probably not the

way to go here.

Second, volume affects the waterline location. Should be obvious, but there are formulas and ideas plus

intuitive "guesses."

Third, volume distribution affects how a board drops in (and paddling efficiency.) As I said before, distribution

that has a bit more float in the tail will (sometimes) "boost" a board into a wave, (as the wave comes, and lifts

the tail before the nose.) If you combine this with the amount of resistance the nose flotation presents to the

boost, things get further complicated, and you get hung up in the lip or caught in the face. So, it is not "the

answer" to look soley at a volume number. That said, too much volume in the back of the board can hurt

("getting" this is, "art.") Template and rocker can completely affect these behaviors.

Better at this point to look at the "bottom line" of what works. For me, I like 32L in my shortboards, I'm 180lbs,

and this board is 5'11." I've had this same basic board off my machine at 28L and it still paddled well but

needed late drops where the wave drops away. I've had this same basic board at 34L and it "felt" like it took

more effort to paddle and more effort to catch a wave. I've had this same board at 36L and it really paddled

well and at 41L and 6'0" it's my bigger wave crowd handling beast.

And that's just ONE genre of boards that I ride. I ride everything, from my 4'10" to my 8'6" today, and my 6'0"

just yesterday.

Art. I'm at the point in approaching a board design where I just look at the guy, ask height, weight, shoe size,

etc. and what size board they like and go from there to conclude a design. So maybe the synthesis is "seat

of the pants" but based upon a ton of boards, findings, failures, improvements, and tests. Maybe I do run an

internal set of "formulas" as I am no stranger to them, I'm a Mechanical Engineer and spent quite a few years

designing and doing structural analysis on rockets in the U.S. Space Program...

I noticed that I tend to apply more of my "formulas" and "theoretical" background to the construction of the

boards. In the hull designs I seem to apply broad (almost vague) concepts of fluid mechanics, hydrodynamics,

bending theory, etc. It really is an art, even with using the machine. It's the art aspect that has taken decades

for me to kind of develop which I find the most satisfying and challenging. Surfboards. Have fun with it.

George

P.S. Man I wished I made some sort of video analysis of the boards way back over a decade ago. Once we

found the "fast" and "slow" boards we could have recorded paddlers from above (like from a pier) to study

the wakes, waterlines, etc. and try to find correlations. There may be a lot to gain.

[surferbee]

Big H - This is an awesome post! Thanks so much for sharing this. This absolutely confirms my suspicions as well. Who's the shaper?

[Big H]

I honestly can't remember the last time I pearled on my longboard, even in overhead surf. I do all the things you mentioned, plus I can get moving pretty quickly on that board. But I pearled something fierce on my simmons on a break where there was nothing but shortboards in the water, and it was on a wave that I thought was a lock - big steep drop, already committing to a tight bottom turn, eyes wide open and looking ahead to a beautiful green wall in front of me - then BAM! the nose bit into the bottom transition right on the turn. This wasn't like, "Ooops, I messed up and pearled." This was like, "I've got this." then wham!

On the longboard, I would have made that bottom turn no problem, but I also would have angled out a little more. I think my Bing Dharma would have handled it too, even though I've also suffered on some late drops with it. Isn't that what nose rocker is ultimately for - to keep the front of the board out of the water? Shifting weight and angling more definitely helps with flatter rocker boards, but I think I've also been trying to compensate by surfing further from the peak when it's more critical. Yeah, I could just resolve to only take out my longboard, but wouldn't a high-volume board w/ more nose rocker allow me to surf a shorter, more maneuverable board in bigger surf? I'm not really looking to surf a big gun in huge surf, just something fun that can can be surfed top to bottom and occasionally handle peaky waves with steeper drops.

Mini Sims is an extreme in terms of tail width and floatation....I'd say that the tail shape was the culprit more than nose or overall rocker or technique as far as why you plowed the nose on a steeper wave....longboard you can get on earlier and angle the board or weight the tail and come down the face in control....smaller board, later catch, you have to be ON it in terms of position, popup speed and technique and most likely push the envelope and sit outside as far as possible and paddle all out to have control on a steeper wave with a board like that....I had a Biscuit copy, really flat and three inches thick at 6'4" and it was like stepping on a bar of soap on takeoff....I figured out how to hold on but there wasn't much control and stopped being fun after not very long. Same wave with a different board (standard Indo tube shooter) and I can catch even later, two to three firm paddles max, hang in the face all planked up, gingerly steer to the angle desired then get up with what feels comparatively like all the time in the world.

Been some talk around here about the worth of custom shaped boards.....I've never done it but the discussion got me thinking about it and it's top of mind so I'll share the bug with you and suggest that maybe you should go see a guy who is familiar with the waves and conditions that you intend to surf specifically, can listen to you and what you want your board to do then whip up a fitted board for your needs. I know I'm thinking hard on it.
This should appeal to you particularly as you know what it is you want the board to do:

I'm not really looking to surf a big gun in huge surf, just something fun that can can be surfed top to bottom and occasionally handle peaky waves with steeper drops.

[Big H]

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