Hard rail forward implications?

[benjl]

Hey guys

I was looking at the rails on my board the other day and didn't realise just how far forward the very hard rail actually stops. I haven't seen or had a board that A) has such a hard turned down rail and B) for so far up the board. I've attached a pic with an arrow to show where the hard rail stops.

What are the exact implications on the surfboards performance from the rails being like this? I know hard rails plane faster and give more hold in waves but what happens when they extend so much further up the board from the front fins as opposed to just starting around the front fins like my other shortboards? How would you need to surf this to enhance the manouverability?

The reason why i'm asking is that I also couple this board with some carbon Medium-large template fins that are quite stiff and drivey ie 115mm base by 116mm height as I thought I needed more speed and hold in my surfing. These fins also have a medium tip for hold and inside foiling.
Given that I am only 64kg, these fins are definately on the bigger size for my weight.

I've had a couple of moments recently coming off top turns where I seem to come off the board and at first I thought it was because I was getting more used to the boards sweet spot / getting it too lose but when I replay the moments in my head over and over, i'm wondering if its because the fins are too big/stiff for me and in combination with the hard rails- the board isn't responding or changing direction as quickly as my body movements might be.

Does this logic sound plasuable? A mate of mine is selling his John John techflex fins and I thought that if the above was accurate, going to a medium template fin but still with a 113mm base by 115.8mm height with a flat foil might help keep some of the driveyness but give more manouverability, flex and pivot to complement the board and my weight.

[dtc]

Your rails don't look like they stop all that far forward for a high perf short board. More than a longboard, but longboards are designed to turn off the tail whereas shortboards turn off the rails more. Most boards have hard rails up to the fins at least, even longboards. I recall someone saying a hand space from the edge of the forward fin is about right.

Anyway, if you read Maurice Cole he reckons have hard rails for the whole board.

What this means, at least my understanding, is that you will find it harder to turn using the fins (pivot turns off the tail) and instead have to do rail turns.

However, hard rails will make the board faster. So, yes, you can decrease fin size and wont lose as much drive (in comparison to if you had soft rails). And bigger fins are harder to turn, and hard rails are more 'tracking' than soft rails. So a combo of big fins and hard rails will be harder to turn.

If you are falling off during a turn because you are turning faster than your board, then loosening your board through small fins is always the first suggestion. Whether you then end up with enough drive, well - pick your trade off!

Keep in mind that different wave sizes and shapes also affect how the board operates. Arguably you can go smaller fins with bigger waves, because you don't need extra speed. Until you go too small and you get pushed sideways instead of forward...

There is no right answer really. Its all a question of 'it helps here but over there it doesnt', Experimentation is really the only way you can figure it out.

I wouldn't bother buying a fin that is almost the same size. Go for an M3 set or the next size down and see what happens. It might be a disaster but you will be able to tell what is working and what isn't.

That said, unless your fins are very much the wrong size (and I've had fins that are too big and I couldn't turn at all, so it does happen), most of the time its technique and not equipment

[drowningbitbybit]

I've had a couple of moments recently coming off top turns where I seem to come off the board... the board isn't responding or changing direction as quickly as my body movements might be.

I think you've got the wrong idea about what your rail is doing and how a hard rail will affect it. A hard rail will make the board easier to turn, unless you're doing a big hack off the tail. For rail-to-rail surfing (which is what most of us are doing really most of the time, no matter what we'd like to think we're doing), that hard rail will for the most part be an advantage, and it certainly will be during a top turn.

If the board isn't responding to your movements, that's because you're moving and trying to get the board to follow... which doesn't work. It's not the fins or the rails, its your weight distribution on the board being wrong and not guiding the board round as you move.

At least fixing your technique is free

[oldmansurfer]

when I used to surf shortboards before I used to ask for what are now known as hard rails. It was just an idea I had back then and even now with a big fat board I asked that the rails be tapered so they maintain hard rail shape. To me round rails grab and catch more when you do rail to rail surfing which is what I enjoy (carving rail to rail.) I think rounder rails are important for nose riding they suck water over the top of the board to lock it in the wave. In my history of surfing I think I had one board that was a pig. It was a total plug in the water that I couldn't make work. Every other board I have surfed it was always just a matter of learning how to use it. Changing boards and fins will mean that then you have to learn how to use that fin configuration or that board. I guess that ultimately it's easy to blame the board but theoretically it could still be the board. The board I had which was a plug was made for me by a friend. I had seen and wanted to try a fish board design and he had seen them but wasn't familiar with the intricacies of making them. I could not carve that board at all and in fact it was hard to just turn it at all. The guy who made the board was a friend but I took that board to my regular shaper and told him to make on like it that worked. He wasn't familiar with fish boards either so he made me a swallow tail with rounded rails. Originally when I tried it I was disappointed because it obviously was much slower than my boards with hard rails. But after trying it in a lot of conditions I found I liked it for tube riding because it didn't want to come out of the tube very fast like my boards with hard rails. I found also that I could speed it up by doing speed turns and when maxed out it approached but never reached the top speed of my hard rail boards (close but still not as fast) but as soon as I quit doing speed turns it slowed back down immediately while the hard rail boards kept a high speed glide.

[benjl]

Hey guys

Thanks for the responses! Here's another factor that might also contribute to it- my board is 6'3 but i'm only about 5'8 so i would doubt that my stance ever gets fully back enough to be properly over the back fin and turn right off the tail.
Given the above with my height, stance and length of the board, those hard rails go up to roughly half way up the board.

I'm sure that technique will absolutely play a part and I was watching a video yesterday that suggested to crouch really low when coming off a top turn so will also try that but i'm just wondering if a combination of the boards length in comparison to my height, rounded tail, forward hard rails and drivey big fins have pushed the board further in to speed; which is what I needed 6 months back, but now suffering in turning ability which is what I need to work on now.
The dimensions of the board are epoxy 6'3 x 19 3/4 x 2 5/8 and its mainly a single concave so I guess at my weight I would'nt really sink the rails that deep due to the volume and epoxy bouyancy + single concaves aid in speed rather than turning.

I was thinking that given my 3 board quiver, I will probably only use this when conditions are 3-6ft nz and when the waves have power so I probably don't need a fin as drivey etc.

[waikikikichan]

You are thinking in only one ( or 2 aspects ) of the turn. You are thinking that a surfboard turns like a car. Surfboards turn more like a motorcycle. You not only turn but lean and pivot. So to talk about your question about rails ( and bottom contours ) lets look a 3 shapes. A Circle, a Square and a Triangle. Grab a coffee lid or frisbee with 2 hands, place it on it's edge on a table and rock it side to side. It's shape stays in contact with the surface and easy to move. Okay now grab a picture frame or box and rock it side to side. The edge takes effort to get it from the flats past the hard edge to the the next flat, there's a time when there's not much area in contact with the surface. Now lastly get something like a triangle ( use the edge of a square box on one corner ) and make it go side to side. It goes from hardly any contact to a lot quickly but abruptly.
It was the same with Motorcycle tires, I hated the triangle profile tires, cause the bike would "fall" into the turns abruptly. I like the roundy profiled tires better, gave better feedback and confidence. But other riders like the floppyness of the triangle tires. It's up to the rider. But notice they don't but car tires on motorcycles, cause they're too square and won't lean.

You cutback and turn by rolling from your inside rail to your outside rail and back. Like a motorcycle, not a car. That's not only you fins, and rail edge but many other factors.

[waikikikichan]

" my board is 6'3 but i'm only about 5'8 so i would doubt that my stance ever gets fully back enough to be properly over the back fin and turn right off the tail. " - I am 5'2" and turn a 9'0". It doesn't matter turning a 4'11" fish or a 12 foot tanker, proper technique is turning off the tail. You can lean and veer from the middle but that's not "turning". If you have learned the basics first, you can ride any board, with any fin, with any rail, made from any material.

[drowningbitbybit]

If you have learned the basics first, you can ride any board, with any fin, with any rail, made from any material.