Getting over some progress stalling.

[FishingForFishies]

Hi everyone, i'm a beginner with some questions, but before that, a little insight of my surfing journey until now.

Start: Beginning of November 2019

Age: 28

How much time: On the surf school, at least 2 times every weekend. Sometimes i go 2 times a day (on Saturday). When i have holidays or days off from work, usually i go surf too. On my daily week routine i use my surfskate to train some posture and turning technique and do some chicken wing pop-ups at different speeds as well as some core strength exercises.

Where i surf: https://surfing-waves.com/atlas/europe/ ... inhos.html

Board i use: 7'0 foam board from Ocean & Earth.

Level: I'm inconsistent at everything but i'm able to go outside most of the times and catch some less steep green waves. Right now i'm on a group with other beginner surfers who are trying to catch green waves, choose a direction and surf along the wall. When we go directly towards the beach we try to do some "S" turns.

So, what's bothering me the most right now:

On more steep waves, usually what tends to happen is that i arch my back and i freeze until i slide down the wave, resulting on pearling. Maybe it's only a mental thing, since i get too focused on what i'm looking (the bottomless pit below me). Other times i force myself to not look down but my pop up gets really urgent and clumsy, so my feet gets bad positioned or sometimes i even cant get up. I tested my board position, my hands position, if i was paddling enough for the wave but i guess what's really blocking me is the mental side of things and how slow i pop up... Compared to some other colleagues i think my transition to arch the back, twist the hip and get my back foot on the board (chicken wing method) takes too long and the wave gets the tail of my board, causing me to fall forward.

The other problem is the weight distribution on the board after i pop up. When i have speed, everything's ok, but when i start to slow down, i tend to press too hard on the front/back of the board, causing my nose to submerge or my tail to really drag. Even when im aware of this and try to decompress my legs, my nose submerges. Sometimes i even try to position my feet a little back so the front doesnt get pressed that hard, but the result is the same. My teacher says that i gained an habit of pressing too hard on the front because in the beginning my problem was the opposite, i pressed my back foot hard. When im practicing on the surfskate, after a few minutes my front leg upper muscle starts to burn a little hard too... So now, i'm trying to evenly distribute the weight between my legs and if i need some forward momentum, get my body lower/closer to my front knee without pressing too hard, just using upper body weight. What do you guys think? Do you have any advice?

When im doing small turns the same problem happens. Imagining that i want to turn to my frontside, i look, rotate shoulders, compress legs a little and press my front foot fingers. But maybe i over do it and the nose stars to submerge. Anyone that had the same problem?

Sorry for the long post and thanks in advance

[oldmansurfer]

Perhaps you should give your height and weight too. You're just starting out. I have no advice in particular but it is a complex thing to go from pushing your front leg to switching to your back leg as you drop down the wave. The pearling action when trying to turn is interesting. I haven't heard of that perhaps the others can help you out. One question I have is why are you using a 7 foot foam board (besides your height and weight)?

[FishingForFishies]

Perhaps you should give your height and weight too. You're just starting out. I have no advice in particular but it is a complex thing to go from pushing your front leg to switching to your back leg as you drop down the wave. The pearling action when trying to turn is interesting. I haven't heard of that perhaps the others can help you out. One question I have is why are you using a 7 foot foam board (besides your height and weight)?

Height: 1,82 cm (5'11''~)
Weight: 78 kg (172 lbs~)

Just to add further information on the board, this is the one i ride:


When i'm able to pop-up on top of a wave i usually don't have problems dropping down and do the weight shifting between the legs, it's more when im on plain water and whitewash is pushing me that i start to struggle.

The pearling when turning, i suspect that i press my front foot (fingers mostly) too hard to the point that when im doing a soft directional change to the frontside (im regular) the top-right of the board starts to submerge, maybe i need to stop overdoing some actions and be more gentle.

Both of these last two topics happens a lot more in situations where im going straight to the beach, with whitewash pushing me, not so much when im dropping down a wave with speed.

When i first began i was riding an 8'0 board of the same type as the 7'0. With more sessions, my instructors told me that i was evolving fast and wanted me to try a 7'6, but at that time, every 7'6 was being used, so they decided to see how i would do in a 7'0. The truth is that i felt great in the 7'0 compared to the 8'0, at the first try i even felt more stable because the board reacted faster to my unbalanced actions, so i adjusted better to that, while the 8'0 felt more rigid.

[dtc]

Agree with old man, a longer board (9ft) would help a lot with your problems. Get in early, more stable, less susceptible to weight changes.

For the pop up, you are just too slow, there is no sugar coating it. You seem to be fixed on going through each step in the process one by one (eg arch back, twist hip etc), you need to learn to do it fast and automatically - through repetition. Do it on land, do it in the white water. Get faster.

That said, here are my two tips:

1. look up not down. Look where you are going to go, or look at the beach. Just not down. Looking down, at the nose or at the bottom of the wave, just exacerbates your problem

2. as soon as you feel the wave catch your board - as soon as - pop up. You will pop up too early sometimes and the wave will go under you. But currently you are waiting too long, and once the board is sliding down the face there is nothing you can do until the bottom and by then its all a mess. So at this stage better to go too early than too late.

As to speed - if you lose speed your board will sink. That's just reality. A bigger board will float with less speed, hence another benefit of going longer. You might gain a little extra distance from changing your weighting, but speed comes from the wave. Unless you are on the wave, using the power of the wave and gravity from going up and down the face, then you wont gain speed. So you probably arent using the wave properly - which is fine, you are a beginner. But dont focus on your feet if your problem is that you are surfing in the flats in front of the wave, rather than on the wave. Ask your teacher about your positioning, not your feet. In your second comment you mentioned it happens in white water - well, there is little power from white water, you are going to sink, thats just 'physics' (ie there is no way around it)

If you are sinking on turning, I suspect its because you are turning without sufficient speed. You are going too slow and trying to trim turn (lean on the rail) instead of carve turn (lean on the fin). Rail 'bog's into the wave (sinks into the wave), wave grabs the board and you are part of the wave and you fall. Have a look at this and see if it helps/seems like what is going on

Google 'bogging the rail' for more discussion. Again, speed is the key. You want to trim turn you need speed. In white water there is no speed. What is happening to you is what happens to anyone in white water, regardless of skill level.

Make sure your stance is correct - beginners often have their feet too far apart, meaning that when they transfer weight to front or back foot, it has a greater effect because your feet are further forward or further back. This may not be relevant, but just check.

[oldmansurfer]

Maybe you are trying to turn in the flats out of the power of the wave then it catches up to you and lifts the tail causing you to pearl? When I surf I try to stay out of the flats or the flat part of the water in front of the wave. There is no power because you are essentially in front of the wave. I may turn there but try not to slow down. If I accidentally go into the flats and loose power I will try to adjust the board so it is lined up as close as can to perpendicular to the wave while the board still has some speed and then crouch down very low because I know the wave is going to lift the board. I might actually place my hands on the board as well to brace myself. I just realized this is probably not what you are experiencing but this is the closet thing to that that I experience.

[FishingForFishies]

For the pop up, you are just too slow, there is no sugar coating it. You seem to be fixed on going through each step in the process one by one (eg arch back, twist hip etc), you need to learn to do it fast and automatically - through repetition. Do it on land, do it in the white water. Get faster.

I think it's exactly that. I think too much on the process of poping up, making me do it too slow. Compared to my colleagues, their chicken wing pop up looks more like a mix between the chicken wing and the jump pop up. While i arch the back, twist the hip, put the back foot, and then move my front foot forward. Will try to improve on that at home until the next session and experiment there.

1. look up not down. Look where you are going to go, or look at the beach. Just not down. Looking down, at the nose or at the bottom of the wave, just exacerbates your problem

Yeah, that's an error im always trying to correct, because it's something i do unconsciously on that urgent moment of poping up.

2. as soon as you feel the wave catch your board - as soon as - pop up. You will pop up too early sometimes and the wave will go under you. But currently you are waiting too long, and once the board is sliding down the face there is nothing you can do until the bottom and by then its all a mess. So at this stage better to go too early than too late.

It's exactly that. When i commit to the pop up on bigger waves is always when the board starts coming down, and usually on bigger waves i just cant complete the popup, i slide my foot and fall or i look too much into the bottom or i grab the board until i drop down the wave. Will focus on that next time. Great tip! Thank you.

As to speed - if you lose speed your board will sink. That's just reality. A bigger board will float with less speed, hence another benefit of going longer. You might gain a little extra distance from changing your weighting, but speed comes from the wave.

Usually when the sea's too wild we stick to the inside and try to catch some strong whitewash, trying to do little directional shifts and going the most time on top of the surfboard as possible. When i say i lose speed on these situations is that i drag a lot more than i should and that "little extra distance" doesnt happen. When the whitewash catches me again after the first push i tend to pearl the board or sometimes i press too hard on the back that it passes through me. I would like to try and juice as much as possible these situations to give me more control.

If you are sinking on turning, I suspect its because you are turning without sufficient speed. You are going too slow and trying to trim turn (lean on the rail) instead of carve turn (lean on the fin). Rail 'bog's into the wave (sinks into the wave), wave grabs the board and you are part of the wave and you fall. Have a look at this and see if it helps/seems like what is going on

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8B7kpAliIB4

Google 'bogging the rail' for more discussion. Again, speed is the key. You want to trim turn you need speed. In white water there is no speed. What is happening to you is what happens to anyone in white water, regardless of skill level.

That's interesting because the time that i think i did better turns, was when i first tried the 7'0 board and i leaned on the fin a little for turning. I would still fall sometimes because i leaned my body too much but either way i felt more responsive than i feel now. Then, one of the instructors said that i should press my front foot fingers more than the back, that it was all on the front and i started to focus on that. Since then i think i didnt make progress, just on my body positioning (not leaning too much with my body). He even showed me this video:

I remember talking to him saying that in the video they seem to press the fins more than the front and he said that it happens only when they're doing a sharp turn.

Will check your video later, but your response makes so much sense to what's happening right now with me.

Maybe you are trying to turn in the flats out of the power of the wave then it catches up to you and lifts the tail causing you to pearl?

Yes, i think i can surely say that the pearling happens almost on that situation all the times. When the wave has some dimension and catches me, i automatically make the adjustments correctly. But when it's whitewash i tend to pearl the board...

When I surf I try to stay out of the flats or the flat part of the water in front of the wave. There is no power because you are essentially in front of the wave. I may turn there but try not to slow down. If I accidentally go into the flats and loose power I will try to adjust the board so it is lined up as close as can to perpendicular to the wave while the board still has some speed and then crouch down very low because I know the wave is going to lift the board.

When you crouch down where do you put the weight? Even? Or more on the back? My instructors says that i crouch too much on those situations and a lot of time that my pearling or back foot dragging happens is when i start to compress my body too much. I think it's something that i do automatically when i feel the wave pushing me but maybe i put too much weight on the front.



Really appreciate your help "dtc" and "oldmansurfer". I'll take your responses into consideration and try to correct my problems on the next sessions. Will post updates.

[FishingForFishies]

Found this article with some good information too:

https://barefootsurftravel.com/livemore ... vs-carving

May help people with the same problems.

[oldmansurfer]

When you crouch down where do you put the weight? Even? Or more on the back? My instructors says that i crouch too much on those situations and a lot of time that my pearling or back foot dragging happens is when i start to compress my body too much. I think it's something that i do automatically when i feel the wave pushing me but maybe i put too much weight on the front.



Really appreciate your help "dtc" and "oldmansurfer". I'll take your responses into consideration and try to correct my problems on the next sessions. Will post updates.

I'm not really sure since I do this kind of instinctively. What I think I do is move my foot position more back over the fins but place my weight more forward so I am kind of leaning forward and may have my front hand on the top of the board to keep from getting tossed forward and to add more weight forward. Quite often the whitewater will entirely cover me up and if I survive the bouncing then I emerge and stand back up. I don't think this is what you are experiencing but it may be related somewhat. The flat water in front of the wave offers no power to the board. I pretty much try to avoid it however actually go there regularly doing turns when I am at high speed already. My problem occurs when I don't have speed and go into the flats by accident and generally it isn't also in front of the wave which is where I imagine beginners have problems. They both get in front of the most powerful portion of the wave and below it at the same time then the wave will catch up to them where it is not breaking yet and push the tail up and cause the board to pearl. When I run into this problem the wave is breaking behind me and it may break over me a little. It's one of several situations where I seem to have adequate instinctual responses to what the wave is doing but react without thinking about it so not sure exactly what I do.

[waikikikichan]

When i commit to the pop up on bigger waves is always when the board starts coming down, and usually on bigger waves i just cant complete the popup, i slide my foot and fall or i look too much into the bottom or i grab the board until i drop down the wave.

Not a silly question, but have you waxed the top of your soft board ?

[steveylang]

Everyone else has provided lots of good feedback. The one suggestion I have is to practice and try to develop a smooth 1-motion pop up, if you are physically capable (if not, then pop up by any means necessary.) It's not going to solve all your problems but better to develop a 1-motion pop up earlier than later, when the chicken wing is ingrained in your muscle memory. Here are a couple of good vids:

[FishingForFishies]

I'm not really sure since I do this kind of instinctively. What I think I do is move my foot position more back over the fins but place my weight more forward so I am kind of leaning forward and may have my front hand on the top of the board to keep from getting tossed forward and to add more weight forward. Quite often the whitewater will entirely cover me up and if I survive the bouncing then I emerge and stand back up. I don't think this is what you are experiencing but it may be related somewhat. The flat water in front of the wave offers no power to the board. I pretty much try to avoid it however actually go there regularly doing turns when I am at high speed already. My problem occurs when I don't have speed and go into the flats by accident and generally it isn't also in front of the wave which is where I imagine beginners have problems. They both get in front of the most powerful portion of the wave and below it at the same time then the wave will catch up to them where it is not breaking yet and push the tail up and cause the board to pearl. When I run into this problem the wave is breaking behind me and it may break over me a little. It's one of several situations where I seem to have adequate instinctual responses to what the wave is doing but react without thinking about it so not sure exactly what I do.

I think i can relate with that to some extent. In my case when i crouch by instinct when the whitewater catches me (knee sized whitewater, i still never been in a situation where it covers me entirely) i should compensate my weight better, put a little more pressure on the back, being more gentle, since i'm abusing too much on the front.

When i commit to the pop up on bigger waves is always when the board starts coming down, and usually on bigger waves i just cant complete the popup, i slide my foot and fall or i look too much into the bottom or i grab the board until i drop down the wave.

Not a silly question, but have you waxed the top of your soft board ?

Yes, on the school before every session we check our boards and wax them before going to the sea. When i refer to the incomplete popup and the sliding it's more on the mental panicking side of things. The technique gets overlooked and i go into "survival" mode doing it poorly. This only happens on bigger waves that starts to close and i feel my popup's too slow to match the power and speed of the wave. That's why sometimes i freeze on the "arching my back" part, because i feel that i wont be able to popup fast enough, making me slide down the wave in the "arched back" position, sometimes i make it and others i pearl dive.

Everyone else has provided lots of good feedback. The one suggestion I have is to practice and try to develop a smooth 1-motion pop up, if you are physically capable (if not, then pop up by any means necessary.) It's not going to solve all your problems but better to develop a 1-motion pop up earlier than later, when the chicken wing is ingrained in your muscle memory. Here are a couple of good vids:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibI53NjCyBo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSOD4qsG9Go

Started yesterday my quest on improving my 1-motion pop up. Maybe it's because of the chicken wing but even with the impulse i'm landing first with my backfoot instead of the 2 at the same time. From what i've seen on some videos, isn't necessarily a bad thing (?) Either way, i filmed me doing this 1-motion pop up and the normal chicken wing one, and the difference is uncanny in terms of speed. I guess it will improve my wave commitment too, since when i go for the 1-motion pop up, there's no way to delay it. With the chicken wing i could stop/delay each steps. Thank you for the help.

[LostAtSea]

Agree with everything dtc said. I think you're right when you suspect it's in your head too.

Commit to the wave, paddle deep and powerful, lean forward (get into that wave!!! It's YOURS DAMMIT!!!AAARGHH!!!) As soon as the front of your board starts to fall down the wave face, your front foot should be coming through and landing.

Your instinct is to grab the board tight when things get cooking - but you have to train your reaction to get upright quickly.

Find some inside breaks that are pitching fast and learn to take of on those - just be careful not to hit the sand. That can help your timing. That's what got me over that hump.

[FishingForFishies]

Agree with everything dtc said. I think you're right when you suspect it's in your head too.

Commit to the wave, paddle deep and powerful, lean forward (get into that wave!!! It's YOURS DAMMIT!!!AAARGHH!!!) As soon as the front of your board starts to fall down the wave face, your front foot should be coming through and landing.

Your instinct is to grab the board tight when things get cooking - but you have to train your reaction to get upright quickly.

Find some inside breaks that are pitching fast and learn to take of on those - just be careful not to hit the sand. That can help your timing. That's what got me over that hump.

Will do that

[dtc]

On the back foot landing first - that’s fine. Obviously not too much difference in timing but it doesn’t have to be exactly the same

If you watch this video you will see even the pros don’t land exactly at the same time, although of course it’s in slow motion so the difference is exaggerated a bit

(Also I hate the chicken wing technique, it seems to be what teachers are teaching nowadays, and maybe I’m old fashioned, but I think it’s inefficient and hard on the knees)

Btw, riding and wave and popping up isn’t a normal thing to do. It’s quite logical for your body to freeze up and go ‘wtf are you trying to make me do, how about I just stay still while you reconsider your choices’. So sliding down a wave face still laying down clutching the board is an entirely reasonable thing to be doing. It’s not surfing obviously, but it’s reasonable

However surfing, like riding a bike, isn’t easier when you slow things down; the waves don’t have any empathy for you. You just have to do things fast and automatically and not let your logic get in the way. But you will get there, it takes time and resilience and you will fail and fall, but eventually you will get there. You aren’t going through anything that is unique

[FishingForFishies]

On the back foot landing first - that’s fine. Obviously not too much difference in timing but it doesn’t have to be exactly the same

If you watch this video you will see even the pros don’t land exactly at the same time, although of course it’s in slow motion so the difference is exaggerated a bit

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XYZ46bGfZ08

(Also I hate the chicken wing technique, it seems to be what teachers are teaching nowadays, and maybe I’m old fashioned, but I think it’s inefficient and hard on the knees)

Btw, riding and wave and popping up isn’t a normal thing to do. It’s quite logical for your body to freeze up and go ‘wtf are you trying to make me do, how about I just stay still while you reconsider your choices’. So sliding down a wave face still laying down clutching the board is an entirely reasonable thing to be doing. It’s not surfing obviously, but it’s reasonable

However surfing, like riding a bike, isn’t easier when you slow things down; the waves don’t have any empathy for you. You just have to do things fast and automatically and not let your logic get in the way. But you will get there, it takes time and resilience and you will fail and fall, but eventually you will get there. You aren’t going through anything that is unique

When i began, the reasons they gave me to teach the chicken wing was because of less strain on the back compared to the jump one, is a technique that requires less "optimal fitness" and that even if you stop surfing for a long time you'll catch the rhythm again faster.

It's funny that you mention that video, i'm always watching it and replaying it (specially the Jordy Smith part, i like his flow).

[jaffa1949]

WARNING You won’t be able to do this reply for another 4 years!
The answer is in one month and one day!

[steveylang]

Btw, riding and wave and popping up isn’t a normal thing to do. It’s quite logical for your body to freeze up and go ‘wtf are you trying to make me do, how about I just stay still while you reconsider your choices’. So sliding down a wave face still laying down clutching the board is an entirely reasonable thing to be doing. It’s not surfing obviously, but it’s reasonable

However surfing, like riding a bike, isn’t easier when you slow things down; the waves don’t have any empathy for you. You just have to do things fast and automatically and not let your logic get in the way. But you will get there, it takes time and resilience and you will fail and fall, but eventually you will get there. You aren’t going through anything that is unique

I absolutely love this analogy!

Even when you get the basics down, as you start surfing bigger and more critical waves this advice still applies. Often your natural instincts or reflexes tell you to stop, pull up, pop up early, etc., when you actually need to do the opposite.

[IB_Surfer]

Ok, here is an easy fix, but you are going to have to look at what's your worse problem with my easy fix:

Pearling: If you want to hold up at the wave face on steep waves, try a bigger fin set up or a more raking fin. If you have never tried them, try the Al Merrick fins, they have more rake and cant, so they stall the board more, it just takes a little more paddle to try it. If not, try a bigger fin Template, like Mayhem fins. Check your size, go a little bigger

Wave stalling & nose submerging: So this is the opposite fin fix, try a smaller template. Look at your current fins, if you have size large go to mediums, if you have mediums try buying fiberglass or performance core instead of plastic compounds, since they are stiffer and usually thinner it will seem to glide a little better.

[FishingForFishies]

Ok, here is an easy fix, but you are going to have to look at what's your worse problem with my easy fix:

Pearling: If you want to hold up at the wave face on steep waves, try a bigger fin set up or a more raking fin. If you have never tried them, try the Al Merrick fins, they have more rake and cant, so they stall the board more, it just takes a little more paddle to try it. If not, try a bigger fin Template, like Mayhem fins. Check your size, go a little bigger

Wave stalling & nose submerging: So this is the opposite fin fix, try a smaller template. Look at your current fins, if you have size large go to mediums, if you have mediums try buying fiberglass or performance core instead of plastic compounds, since they are stiffer and usually thinner it will seem to glide a little better.

This may seem something i will save for later, since right now i'm only using the boards from school.

____________

Since i created this topic i can see some improvements on adding too much weight on the front. The school coach while we were on a class and saw how i was pearling the front of the board almost every time, told me to forget about the knees, to only focus on the head and arms, and after some more classes i can feel less of a burden regarding that theme, i started to have a more relaxed pose and even trimming better. Sometimes i think im too relaxed, but i guess it's just a mental thing since i was going extreme on adding weight on the front. Let's see how this develops.