Right of way question

[alex_k]

Hello,

I have a question about right of way. Consider two surfers at a point break with a very defined takeoff and a big set wave coming in.

Surfer A is about 20-30 feet down the line from the peak. A is on a big longboard and can get in early, when the wave is all shoulder and has yet to break at his location. A is far enough outside that he could sit still and the wave would roll under.

Surfer B is sitting a little too deep for this set wave, both towards the shore and in the direction of the line, and if he does not move the wave will crash right on him. If surfer B was alone, he could point down the line, sprint, then get just outside the peak in time for a critical takeoff. B is pointed as if he is paddling for the wave, and is out of time if A paddles and pops up to turn then duck or turtle behind A.

Who has the right of way? Surfer A can be up riding before the wave even gets to B, but B is much closer to the peak in the direction of the line. Further, if A has the right of way, what should surfer B do to avoid getting clobbered? I drew a little diagram to try to illustrate the positions.

Thank you,

[surferbee]

First-to-the-feet VS. Closest-to-the-peak?!?!? I love this question because it happens all the time and causes a lot of confusion at some of the breaks I surf. First of all, different breaks have different rules and you should try to learn and respect the rules at your break. It varies at the breaks I surf. At a popular point break, priority often goes to the deepest surfer even if (or especially when) they're backdooring the peak. At a nearby beach break, generally, the rider who is first to their feet has right of way, which unfortunately can mean that some longboarders will shoulder hop a wave from outside. Maybe they fade back to the peak, maybe they burn the wave - either way it's theirs.

But there are other considerations. Was one surfer waiting longer? Has one surfer burned a wave or two? Is one surfer an OG local? Where it gets particularly messy is when the logger keeps taking waves without letting other surfers catch a few, especially in a crowded lineup. This is one of my biggest pet peeves (unless I'm the logger )! But again, respect and good communication should resolve that.

More on that here: https://surfing-waves.com/wave_priority.htm

[BaNZ]

Both A and B is at the wrong spot so neither of them should have the right of way. They need to learn and take off at the correct spot, if this is a point break then it should be very clear.

I know in the real world, this always happens. A is usually on a long board and B is on a shortboard. In my spot, usually B gets the right of way because he/she is closer to the peak and that they are usually a better surfer for taking a steep drop. A is usually some kook that is on a foamy riding it straight onto the beach which will collide with surfer B.

There's no doubt that I'm usually surfer A.

[oldmansurfer]

Rules vary from beach to beach but generally the first to popup has the right of way so If the longboarder pops up first then he has the right of way but at some breaks it is still the closest to the peak so if the longboarder wants the right to ride that wave he needs to surf back to the peak before the shortboarder can get there.

[waikikikichan]

1) does “A” know what he is doing and “B” does not ?
2) does “B” know what he is doing and “A” does not ?

Is it just A and B at the peak by themselves only ? Or are there:
1) 6 “B”s and only 1 “A”
2) 6 “A”s and only 1 “B”

At Waikiki, “A” would fade left, put his rail over “B”s back and spray him ( or just run him clean over )

Question: which one are you ? A or B ?
And who won the argument?

[alex_k]

Maybe they fade back to the peak

This is what happened yesterday. I am B but didn't want to say until people started floating their thoughts. Surfer A did a bottom turn as if they were on a left (the wave is a right) and I thought "no way is this guy yielding to me" and straightened out to get out of the way and got slammed by foam. Last thing I saw was him straightening out from his leftward bottom turn. Here is the thing I am not clear on -- if B had turned right (as I originally expected) and I had paddled, then this scenario looks like a classic drop in by A. If I was A instead of B, no question I would have yielded, perhaps conservatively, to stay clear in case B got up. If it matters at all, this was extremely fast, only a few seconds for all of this to unfold, I would have been up within about three seconds of him, and we were relatively close to each other. Everyone else was well outside of the two of us. I'm not sure how long we were waiting, both at least since last set. A appeared to be a very solid surfer, probably better than me, but I didn't see him enough to be confident.

Anyway, assuming that A gets this wave, how does B not get slammed?

Further, how should I avoid this in general, just not sit too deep? I'd just like to avoid what felt like a mistake on my part in the future.

Thanks again for your wisdom, much appreciated

[alex_k]

1) does “A” know what he is doing and “B” does not ?
2) does “B” know what he is doing and “A” does not ?

Is it just A and B at the peak by themselves only ? Or are there:
1) 6 “B”s and only 1 “A”
2) 6 “A”s and only 1 “B”

At Waikiki, “A” would fade left, put his rail over “B”s back and spray him ( or just run him clean over )

Question: which one are you ? A or B ?
And who won the argument?

I am B. A is a better surfer than me, but I was doing fine until this wave. I yielded plenty, got no complaints, got a few really nice waves by waiting patiently for an opportunity with no risk of dropping in on someone. This break is *much* more competitive and local-y than my home breaks, and I was trying carefully to watch myself, and felt solid until this. I'd surfed a smaller, mellower peak right next to this peak, same surf area, multiple times without complaints or issues.

There were more people down the line from A, and they did nothing and let the wave roll under them. The two of use were much closer to the peak than anyone else out.

Could you explain your comment about Waikiki a bit more please? I don't understand why this would result in A being so angry as to do something like run B over. If A got up and B just sat there, stayed caught inside and got hit by the wash, and let A surf, what's the problem for A?

As I mentioned above in my reply to Surferbee, it appeared I was about to be on a collision course so I straightened out very quickly and then got clobbered. Is there any other preferable thing to do? (Other than not get caught inside, which clearly is preferable.) It didn't really become an argument, maybe because I tried to get out of the way soon as I realized what was happening.

Thank you, appreciate the thoughts

[surferbee]

Fading back to the peak to get the most power out of the wave is different than going left on a right, or vice versa. If surfer A goes the wrong direction and bottom turns into the breaking wave, then surfer B is definitely not at fault. Otherwise, the surfer who's riding has right-of-way over the surfing who's paddling. This would mean that surfer B should do their best to get out of the way, even if this means paddling into the broken/breaking wave and ducking a big set or taking it on the head.

You surf in the SF Bay Area, right? Do you mind saying where this was? It might help clarify things a bit.

[waikikikichan]

Like others have alluded to, different breaks have different rules and vibes. Queens in Waikiki breaks like a angled number 7. You fade left to set up going right. And is a dominate longboard break, if you’re brave enough ( and good enough ) to surf there with a shortboard, you already know the answer.
But say just a few miles away from Queens is Bowls which is more shortboard dominated. If you’re going to catch outside on the shoulder on a longboard and drop down in front of other surfers, you’ll probably get a ( pointy nose ) board put somewhere up your backside.

[alex_k]

Fading back to the peak to get the most power out of the wave is different than going left on a right, or vice versa.

This was definitely not him going the wrong way. It was almost like his first turn was a huge cutback all the way to the trough, he had just straightened when I lost view in the wash and I presume continued on and cranked a big bottom turn to head back down the line. I've never seen someone fade that heavily on a takeoff before, but he definitely wasn't just going the wrong direction.

Do you mind saying where this was? It might help clarify things a bit.

Oh yes, of course! This was in Santa Cruz at pleasure point, first peak. The other, slightly more mellow peak was second peak. I think my surfing is okay to handle the waves, but clearly that my crowd handling needs improvement for such a competitive spot. I've surfed the beaches south of santa cruz with more power in the water, but nearly no one else there, and had a blast.

I'm pretty sure this was my mistake, especially thinking about everyone's comments here, and taking the wave on the head was the right thing to do. Got to be more careful about sitting too deep!

Thanks again,

[alex_k]

Like others have alluded to, different breaks have different rules and vibes. Queens in Waikiki breaks like a angled number 7. You fade left to set up going right. And is a dominate longboard break, if you’re brave enough ( and good enough ) to surf there with a shortboard, you already know the answer.
But say just a few miles away from Queens is Bowls which is more shortboard dominated. If you’re going to catch outside on the shoulder on a longboard and drop down in front of other surfers, you’ll probably get a ( pointy nose ) board put somewhere up your backside.

Gotcha. That makes a lot of sense.

[surferbee]

Pleasure Point is usually pretty mellow unless the conditions are really good, or just better there than anywhere else nearby. Occasionally, some locals will breach standard etiquette, though - snaking, dropping in. And it's a popular spot, so you'll also get some others who just don't have good etiquette to begin with. But generally, it's chill. Maybe surfer A just really wanted that wave and thought you were too far inside to get it?

FWIW, these are the guidelines for PP:

[surferbee]

BTW, your situation/location reminded me of a similar, funny experience surfing Pleasure Point a few years back. I was there on Halloween with a buddy, and he took off on a wave as another surfer was caught inside and trying paddle up and over the breaking wave. The guy was pissed off that my friend had dropped in because it meant that he ended up taking it on the head. As the guy is b*tching at him, this other surfer in vampire make-up paddles over and just starts yelling at the guy for being in my friend's way and not knowing proper etiquette. I'll never forget the look on that guy's face when he turned and saw that he was getting chewed out by a vampire. Needless to say, he backed down pretty fast.

So, I guess the moral of this story is to make sure you know proper etiquette, and be sure to get on the good side of the surf-vampires in Santa Cruz.

[tomthetreeman]

What I have learned is that if you are inside and another surfer has the wave, it is your responsibility to avoid a collision, even if that means eating it.

It sounds like he was doing an exaggerated fade to make his point, which, IMO is kinda douchey. Just call the wave, pal. It definitely sounds like he knows the wave and he may have even been positioned out there to keep some distance from you.

Tom

[alex_k]

tomthetreeman -- Sounds right. He definitely had right of way, especially following this discussion, but I agree he could have called the wave earlier and more clearly.

[alex_k]

Surferbee -- Yes, that all makes sense. I'd read that sign, and heard plenty of people discuss these rules for general spots, and think that I was just not clear how to parse rule one. I'd read it as "first surfer up and closest to the curl" has priority, but that doesn't resolve a conflict between the two, but it seems more like "first surfer up has the right of way, and if that rule doesn't apply, closest to the curl has right of way." (I feel like I'm in a CS class -- does the comma imply a nested if statement or is it an "and" or an "or"? Nested if.)

I agree about second peak, it's friendly and fun every time I've been. But first peak on Tuesday, maybe it was the day but line-up vibes were more touchy than I'd seen pretty much anywhere. (I'm not going to steamer lane though.) I saw a near or maybe even light collision, way too close, between two very good surfers at sewers who seemed in a similar situation to the one we were describing here. Another good surfer connected a big set wave from first to second peak, and a woman dropped in on him and he yelled and kept yelling after she apologized multiple times and some dude started telling him to back off.

That is hilarious! Really any chewing out, especially a polite chewing out, is humbling but the makeup really turns it up a notch. Well I'm glad that I took it on the head!

It seems like the lesson is 1) don't get caught inside, you lose right of way and then get pummeled 2) if you do and someone is surfing a little outside earlier than you, get out of the way fast as you can!

Thank you all very much. This was super informative and hopefully I will avoid this mistake in the future!

[BoMan]

Respect and good communication should resolve that.

Well said. I talk with people around me during lulls and it definitely smoothes out the rough edges.

I would also add to the Pleasure Point rule #2..."Paddle outside of the lineup." It's no fun to get a wave and then bail to avoid someone moving across your takeoff line.

[waikikikichan]

He definitely had right of way, especially following this discussion,

I don’t agree with that. The call could’ve gone either way depending on many variables. But weigh the matter of your/his safety versus who’s right to the wave. Waves aren’t perfect and humans too, we all make mistakes.

Well I'm glad that I took it on the head!

It seems like the lesson is 1) don't get caught inside, you lose right of way and then get pummeled

It’s not clear to me from your original drawing of the situation. How far away was the “white water” when you started to paddle and most important to “right of possession”, had the wave already broken ?

[surferbee]

I feel like I'm in a CS class -- does the comma imply a nested if statement or is it an "and" or an "or"? Nested if.

Yeah, it's a bit of a grey area, and I can totally imagine them having that same debate when they designed the sign, arguing over which rule should come first and finally deciding to put them both first. Then arguing over whether to use a slash, or a comma, or an "and/or" or an &.

But ultimately, waikikikichan's got it right:

But weigh the matter of your/his safety versus who’s right to the wave. Waves aren’t perfect and humans too, we all make mistakes.

[alex_k]

BoMan -- Definitely on rule 2! Go way around, especially at the point where an "around" very much exists. I got in at 36th and paddled rather than take the closer stairs.

waikikikichan -- The wave broke about 30 ft outside where most had broken. I was right where I thought the peak was on previous waves, but with the bigger wave I was now about 30 ft inside, directly in line in the shore-ward direction with the first whitewash. At the moment when I noticed the wave breaking, he was maybe 30 ft out on the shoulder, I didn't notice him paddling before then but he was immediately after I noticed the peak start to feather. I started to sprint within maybe 1s then straightened 2-3s after that when he started surfing my direction. My paddling probably started after his, but I didn't see him going from rest to paddle so I'm not confident in that. These estimates are, of course, subjective, but all this was really fast and pretty close.

I think it was safe enough for me to get hit by the white wash, not the first time to get hit by a wave. If I'd sprinted towards him, gotten up and bottom turned and he'd stayed as he was, that would have been really dangerous, as we'd have been on a collision course. Even if it was my right of way (which I don't think it was) that would be super sketchy, better to miss the wave then risk him not changing course or seeing me or something. He maybe could have been a little more communicative, but I wasn't mad about it, and brought this up to stop making an what seems like an avoidable mistake.

Agreed with all! Safety and good communication are priorities!