Struggling with bigger waves

[Millsy82]

Hello again everybody.

Over the last year I've been flying with my progress front side and backside but the thing I've struggled with is when it starts to get that little bit bigger/steeper.

The board I've been riding is 6'10× 22" can't remember how thick it is but about 47l volume. Where I surf is a beach break if its too big at the north end keep heading round the bay it gets smaller as you go further round.

What I have mainly been surfing there is when magic sea weed says up to 4-5 ft 9 secs I surf the north end anything over that I start heading further down.

My problem comes when the period starts going up. Just recently it's been 5-6ft 13-14secs which although I'm happy and comfortable with the size I cannot find the right take off spot. The waves seem to lurch from 45deg to catch to vertical drop in within a space of seconds. Now watching others I'm in the right spot but I either get sucked back up and over the back of the wave or have a near vertical takeoff. I just can't seem to match the speed.

So my questions are these

1) should I be kicking to try and help build up a bit more speed when the wave is before 45deg? A friend who has only surfed shortboards for the past 20 years said to do that but as my shins are still over the board would this work? At the moment I'm just relying on my arms.

2) can you have too much volume when it gets bigger which is why I'm getting sucked up over the top? If I went for a slightly thinner board not so much shorter but more short board shape to reduce the volume?

3) should I just accept that I've got to do late drop ins (it seems only me that does it everyone else seems to have loads of time but also they have more experience than me) buy a really short board for when it's smaller and just keep practising late takeoffs?

[billie_morini]

Millsy, I'm thinking along these lines for what you've described.

Catch the wave earlier.
Don't wait until its breaking.
Shift back a little bit on your board.
Arch your back.
Paddle... paddle HARD!
Don't wait until the wave makes the board move, it should already be moving.
As soon as the wave catches the board, pop up!
Don't wait until you're flying down the face.

[dtc]

1. if you can kick on a 6'10 then you are either in the wrong place on the board or about 7ft tall. I'm 6'3 and there is no way I could kick on my 6'10. Well, i could but I would break my ankles.

2. to some extent having lower volume can help if your paddling is good enough (because lower volume requires better paddling/lower volume gives less paddling assistance), but keep in mind that people paddle into massive waves on 9 and 10ft guns. Step up boards are higher volume than standard boards. Its not the volume as such, its more the board shape. A narrower/thinner tail will help, a fat tail will make it harder. Maybe (?) a tad more rocker.

3. on bigger but not huge waves, you can surf just about any board. So if you want to try a different board then the conditions are fine for that; whether it will help I am not sure. But there is no harm in trying if you can borrow a board (or 'demo' a board).

In any case, I suspect its the wave period that is creating problems; at 14 seconds there will be a bit of power and speed behind those waves and you need to be paddling hard and fast. Make sure you are in the right place on your board. Duck your head down just as you get near take off to force the board over and down the face. Max power for the first few strokes, dont try to build up momentum slowly. Remember that taking off is using gravity to get you down the face, you need to push yourself over the ledge and down. Maybe you are just trying to catch the wave too late? It can be fun popping up right on the crest and putting a heap of weight onto your front foot and zooming down the face...dont hang around the shortboarders, use that bigger board to get in earlier

Good luck. I dont think there is any magic, certainly a different board wont be a magic cure. Its a combination of little things that you need to try out and refine.

[oldmansurfer]

My advice is learn to take off steeper later on smaller waves. Where you feel comfortable in the lineup go a yard or two deeper and learn to take the drop and make the bottom turn , then once that becomes comfortable go a yard or two deeper still and learn to take off from there then once you are comfortable with that try the bigger waves. The thing is to make late drops you need to commit to them. No hesitation just go for it. In bigger waves you have to deal with the fear of bigger waves and a late drop so learn on smaller waves since they are less scary and easier to commit to. When I used to surf the biggest waves I surf I would try taking off at where it feels safe but quite often I couldn't get into the wave from that safe spot so I would go 10 feet deeper (don't go that much deeper in small waves) and try again, if that didn't work I would go 10 more feet deeper and try again. It sometimes took me 30 minutes of trying to take off before I found a spot that let me in but eventually it would. Very scary on big waves but I tried to make sure I was going to survive and so far I have But try it on smaller waves first to develop skills to handle it besides paddling you need to popup fast too so work at that on smaller waves too.

[Millsy82]

Millsy, I'm thinking along these lines for what you've described.

Catch the wave earlier.
Don't wait until its breaking.
Shift back a little bit on your board.
Arch your back.
Paddle... paddle HARD!
Don't wait until the wave makes the board move, it should already be moving.
As soon as the wave catches the board, pop up!
Don't wait until you're flying down the face.

I've tried to catch it earlier and that's what I'm struggling at. I've tried paddling as hard as I can really commit to it and still get sucked over. I've tried sitting 10 meters back and paddling like a mad man to build up speed and still get the same. It's just as though I cant build the speed up to match the wave which is why I end up sat deeper and deeper. It's frustrating as I'm sat deeper than people on tiny boards and only seem to be able to catch them really steep.

[Millsy82]

1. if you can kick on a 6'10 then you are either in the wrong place on the board or about 7ft tall. I'm 6'3 and there is no way I could kick on my 6'10. Well, i could but I would break my ankles.

2. to some extent having lower volume can help if your paddling is good enough (because lower volume requires better paddling/lower volume gives less paddling assistance), but keep in mind that people paddle into massive waves on 9 and 10ft guns. Step up boards are higher volume than standard boards. Its not the volume as such, its more the board shape. A narrower/thinner tail will help, a fat tail will make it harder. Maybe (?) a tad more rocker.

3. on bigger but not huge waves, you can surf just about any board. So if you want to try a different board then the conditions are fine for that; whether it will help I am not sure. But there is no harm in trying if you can borrow a board (or 'demo' a board).

In any case, I suspect its the wave period that is creating problems; at 14 seconds there will be a bit of power and speed behind those waves and you need to be paddling hard and fast. Make sure you are in the right place on your board. Duck your head down just as you get near take off to force the board over and down the face. Max power for the first few strokes, dont try to build up momentum slowly. Remember that taking off is using gravity to get you down the face, you need to push yourself over the ledge and down. Maybe you are just trying to catch the wave too late? It can be fun popping up right on the crest and putting a heap of weight onto your front foot and zooming down the face...dont hang around the shortboarders, use that bigger board to get in earlier

Good luck. I dont think there is any magic, certainly a different board wont be a magic cure. Its a combination of little things that you need to try out and refine.

1) I went out yesterday to see if kicking helped but my ankles are just over the edge of the board.

2) I always thought my paddling was strong until this recent spell of decent waves which has knocked me back. I appreciate that people paddle into massive waves on huge boards and I should imagine if I took a longboard out I would probably be able to catch these. I don't like turtle rolling and trying to get out and until this recent spell I've loved my board.

3) I have got a 6'6 that I'm going to take out just to see if I can catch waves on that, I could catch before but riding it was a bit twitchy at the time.

It is the bigger periods that are causing the problem as we don't get them a huge amount usually 10secs or less and I have felt I've made huge progress over the last 9-12 months. I feel if I can get my head around this then it's the next step for me.

[Millsy82]

My advice is learn to take off steeper later on smaller waves. Where you feel comfortable in the lineup go a yard or two deeper and learn to take the drop and make the bottom turn , then once that becomes comfortable go a yard or two deeper still and learn to take off from there then once you are comfortable with that try the bigger waves. The thing is to make late drops you need to commit to them. No hesitation just go for it. In bigger waves you have to deal with the fear of bigger waves and a late drop so learn on smaller waves since they are less scary and easier to commit to. When I used to surf the biggest waves I surf I would try taking off at where it feels safe but quite often I couldn't get into the wave from that safe spot so I would go 10 feet deeper (don't go that much deeper in small waves) and try again, if that didn't work I would go 10 more feet deeper and try again. It sometimes took me 30 minutes of trying to take off before I found a spot that let me in but eventually it would. Very scary on big waves but I tried to make sure I was going to survive and so far I have But try it on smaller waves first to develop skills to handle it besides paddling you need to popup fast too so work at that on smaller waves too.

Thanks I'm going to try and get used to late take offs. Problem around me is the lack of consistent waves. My pop up I believe is very good, nice and quick and I thought my paddling technique, power and fitness was good but obviously not quite good enough yet.

[Lebowski]

I'm usually against blaming the board for anything, but it's worth being aware that certain board shapes can be a real handful in hollow surf.

Groveller type shapes with wide tails, not much tail rocker and a lot of tail volume are particularly bad in my experience. The high tail volume means that it doesn't sink into the wave as the wave is building and starting to break. Instead, it sits on top of the water but the nose drops downwards as the wave steepens, leading to a very hectic vertical takeoff.

However, it sounds like you could do with working on your timing and positioning too, and these would be a better place to start.

[Millsy82]

"However, it sounds like you could do with working on your timing and positioning too, and these would be a better place to start."

I honestly don't think it's my positioning/timing but I'm bound to say that.

"it sits on top of the water but the nose drops downwards as the wave steepens, leading to a very hectic vertical takeoff."

I think this is my problem. Which is why I was wondering if you can have too much volume.

[Millsy82]

The board I'm riding now is this

http://slideandglidesurf.co.uk/product/ ... urf-board/

I ride a 6'10x 22 that is no longer availible according to that.

The kind of board I was thinking is this

https://www.boardshop.co.uk/mark-phipps ... range-rail

Was thinking maybe as it's thinner I may not lose the paddle power I have but not so much volume to suck me up (If that is even what's happening.)

[waikikikichan]

If you move your body up 2cm. , most of your problem will be solved.

Questions:
1) are others making the drop on similar size/type boards as yours ? Are you sitting at the peak with those surfers ?

2) are you taking off on the best waves of the set ? Or are you only able to get the leftover scraps the good surfers don’t go for ?

3) how often do you pearl versus get sent back over the top of the wave ?

3)

[Millsy82]

If you move your body up 2cm. , most of your problem will be solved.

Questions:
1) are others making the drop on similar size/type boards as yours ? Are you sitting at the peak with those surfers ?

2) are you taking off on the best waves of the set ? Or are you only able to get the leftover scraps the good surfers don’t go for ?

3) how often do you pearl versus get sent back over the top of the wave ?

3)

Tried moving forward and back still have the same issue. If I go any further forward I'm pretty much paddling the nose into the water. Although next time I'm out I will try. Problem is it's now getting smaller and weaker.

1) most of the surfers around me are shortboarders and even they can take off further back than me.

2) the waves I eventually catch are usually I've just messed up on a bigger better wave and a smaller wave comes after and I end up catching that.

3) out of 10 waves I go over the back on 5 have vertical takeoffs on 4 and might have 1 where I get it. Sometimes I stick the vertical take off but then have no control over my bottom turn and either mess it up or wobble off.

[jaffa1949]

There is a simple answer, COMMIT, you need to match the speed of the wave, too slow your nose will be pushed down because the tail is being lifted by the faster wave. You can angle your take off as needed but use your speedy pop up skills to push your board down into the wave.
The angle helps, too much angle your tail will beat you to the bottom.
Remember I feel the need for speed, he who hesitates is pearling!

[tomthetreeman]

This thread is extremely interesting to me, I have some of the same issues. There are so many variables in play with bigger waves, I feel like all your s#!t needs to be on point or else the process falls apart. I’m enjoying the learning experience... Part of which is not getting in the way of better surfers which affords me less opportunities, but that’s how it goes! Jaffa, your comment about committing may be the most important of all! Thanks everyone, this is why I love this site.

Tom

[oldmansurfer]

I totally love late drops on bigger waves especially but I will try all kinds of out of position takeoffs on smaller waves just to see what I can do and to make them more fun. About boards, each board requires different tactics. So a wide tailed board with no rocker will drop fast on steep waves and can be used even though they aren't meant for that. If it has lots of volume and a wide tail then you need to do different things at the bottom. Lots of people are into switching boards for different conditions but my theory is to use the same board for most of your surfing so you can learn how to use it and so your instincts are for that board. But I guess it depends on your level of surfing. If you aren't doing anything critical or dangerous then whatever change boards all you want, it won't matter. If you're a pro then by all means change boards often since you are so much more skilled than us peons. If you surf at least double digit numbers of hours weekly then changing boards often becomes easier however you will still likely end up a jack of all boards and master of none.

[surferbee]

There's a lot of sound advice already said, but I'm going to slightly disagree with some of it. I posted on here a few years back with a similar problem about getting into good waves with an over-volumed simmons (in some ways similar to the shape you're riding). Based on that experience, I am definitely of the opinion that too much volume can be a hinderance. You can check out that thread here and maybe there's something of value for you: https://surfing-waves.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=26100

With that said, yes, positioning, timing, and commitment are all key. BUT, some waves you can't roll or chip into - maybe they jack up, or slab, or might peak only in one spot as the swell hits the seafloor - and they require a quick, late drop. AND, some boards (as Lebowski mentioned) just aren't as well suited to steeper, faster, sucking waves. A thick, wide, flat-rockered board (like the one you have) DOES make it harder to break the ledge, fit into a steeper face, and not pearl on a late drop.

Depending on the wave, maybe you need a longer board, maybe you need a shorter board, maybe you need to improve your technique (always!), but one of the reasons that shapers mention wave size, shape, and power when describing a board is because different shapes are suited to different conditions. I'm sure your board is just fine in SOME overhead waves, but I can definitely think of conditions where I, personally, would NOT be reaching for that board before paddling out.

[oldmansurfer]

Well my flat no rocker high volume board does just fine on steep waves

[surferbee]

Well my flat no rocker high volume board does just fine on steep waves

Umm, sorry, but I'm gonna have to call *bull* on that. I've seen you post your quiver. Your boards are not at all similar to the OP's board. Even the one or two with less rocker have a pulled in nose and tail, a foiled rail line, and look like large step-ups, fun guns, or bigger wave boards.

[oldmansurfer]

I have a 7’6” board with little rocker and a round tail. It does have a pointed nose but the lack of rocker makes it handle differently however FireWire sites say that is the size of a shortboard for someone my size and age. However this board was custom made for me and so has much more volume than the FireWire board recommended. It does have nice rails but it was meant for flat weak waves. The trick to high volume low rocker boards is to be more forward on the board. No rocker boards push more water when you are out of position, you have to be in the right place to paddle effectively. Think what you want. I am who I am regardless of what you think of me I still love late takeoffs and I am very good at them and can even do them with a longboard

[surferbee]

Old Man, this thread isn't about you. My first post wasn't in reference to you. I'm just trying to help out Millsy82.