Popping up on a Shortboard

[Ratfinksurfer]

I've just transitioned from a 9'0" longboard to a 6'8" Hybrid (Hypto Krypto). I've ridden this board a handful of times but I'm not getting up consistently. I'm not sure if my paddling is too weak, I'm putting my hands in the wrong place, or I'm sitting too far inside or outside. I came very close to catching a decent wave last week that came right to me. I paddled hard, the wave caught me and I went to stand up, but I just fumbled down the face of the wave. I'm so much more used to catching waves early on my longboard. The wave feels SO steep when I'm trying to drop in on my Hypto. ( It tends to be a pretty steep angled take off here at El Porto.) I have a feeling I should be paddling harder at the end. The few times I've had a successful ride on this board was with 3 ft. waves, getting the peak and just going straight perpendicular into the beach. Whenever the wave is more powerful and pitching it seems like I'm always either too far inside or too far outside.

[jaffa1949]

Three extra strokes...... paddle smart you are going to have to handle the steeper pitch as there is no glide and presage paddle power... match the speed of the wave in a short burst and you have to be being down the face as the wave lifts up. You can still do an angle take off, but not as angled as a longboard. You are relying on the more power in the steeper section of the wave but you have to allow yourself to be in that spot.
You are going to get your turns operating quickly and efficiently, your first and absolute main tool to crack the code is a fully fledged bottom turn!
Even at this stage if it gets you to a good position on the face, great, NO MORE straight to the beach or 45 degrees angles.
Wait to you feel joy and GeForce s of a full throttle bottom turn

[oldmansurfer]

The thing about critical waves is you can't hesitate. If the waves intimidate you then you may hesitate which will make it all more difficult. This is why I am a fan of small steps. Start off with waves that don't intimidate you and gradually increase the size and power so that you get used to it and it doesn't intimidate you. Oh and as jaffa says learn to do a really good bottom turn, that will make the rest of your surfing easier.

[waikikikichan]

You’re asking for advice on how to adjust your technique to lift a weight that’s too much for you. You were not even comfortable benching a 100lbs. , and now your trying for 300lbs. ( you went right passed 200lbs even when that was too much ).
Lifting a too heavy weight, riding a too powerful motorcycle, and going straight on a too small board is just asking for problems.
Put the 6’ish board away to you can confidently bottom turn and trim a 8’0”. Then start to do simple turn downs/ups on a 7’6” ish board.

[RinkyDink]

You’re asking for advice on how to adjust your technique to lift a weight that’s too much for you. You were not even comfortable benching a 100lbs. , and now your trying for 300lbs. ( you went right passed 200lbs even when that was too much ).
Lifting a too heavy weight, riding a too powerful motorcycle, and going straight on a too small board is just asking for problems.
Put the 6’ish board away to you can confidently bottom turn and trim a 8’0”. Then start to do simple turn downs/ups on a 7’6” ish board.

That's a really fitting analogy, especially since riding a shortboard requires a lot of strength, experience, and perfect timing.

[Ratfinksurfer]

I am happy to update this thread with my current progress! After much practice and effort I'm up and riding my shortboard now! I had no idea when I transitioned from the longboard to the shortboard just how radically different the two sports were. It's practically a different sport entirely! Thanks to all the excellent feedback I've received on this board and surfer pals, (shout out to steveygrom!) I'm finally able to ride my Hypto Krypto!
I think what makes surfing so difficult is that having never experienced a successful pop-up on a steep wave (for example), your muscles have no memory of properly surfing, so your body is essentially clueless. Building that muscle memory takes countless tiny steps. Then there's the ever changing environment of the ocean. The pretense that pop-up techniques can be learned on land is laughable. Hence all of the ridiculous land based pop-up exercises, (See chicken wing, push ups with toes, push ups with knees.)
The best advice I got was to LOOK! Look at where other surfers are catching waves, look at how the waves break, look at how other surfers are paddling, taking off, etc. I spent an entire session not surfing at all, just watching and taking mental notes.
Looking over my shoulder at the wave, and lookin down the line, helped me immensely. It seems so obvious now, but I probably needed to focus on all of the tiny adjustments first. Then I just had to LOOK where I was going, and go there!
The last question I would like to pose is this. When paddling on a longboard it seems like you gain momentum, but it seems like the beginning paddles when shortboarding are more about getting into positon. It's those last two or three strokes that really gets you into the wave. Am I correct in this?

[oldmansurfer]

great update. I think shorter boards mean you have to be positioned more accurately and they require paddling to maintain speed. Longboards have glide so they keep going after you quit paddling but shorter boards slow down once you quit paddling. Both long and short boards can catch waves without paddling. However you need to be closer to where the wave is breaking to takeoff on a shortboard. So my interpretation of what you said is if you are out of position then you need to get in position and after that you are paddling to catch the wave.

[dtc]

The last question I would like to pose is this. When paddling on a longboard it seems like you gain momentum, but it seems like the beginning paddles when shortboarding are more about getting into positon. It's those last two or three strokes that really gets you into the wave. Am I correct in this?

This might be completely wrong but it was a theory I came up with during my last session, where I continually fell over and failed (but thats for a different reason)

The volume in bigger boards means three things (for catching waves): you can catch them earlier. you can catch them easier (because there is more volume for the wave to work on) and hence you can be out of position a little bit and still get them, and you can paddle into the right position earlier.

However, the downside is that a sucky wave will suck you up the wave face faster (because of more volume/floatier). So on a bigger board you need more momentum to overcome the water going up the face

On a short board, you dont need as much momentum because the water going up the face has less effect - you arent as floaty. So you just need to be in the right position and take a few strokes. Of course, you need to be in the right position; you simply dont have that margin of error you do with a bigger board. But you also dont need to have the same momentum.

I failed year 10 physics so I may be completely crazy.

[Ratfinksurfer]

a sucky wave will suck you up the wave face faster (because of more volume/floatier). So on a bigger board you need more momentum to overcome the water going up the face

That was a very fascinating post to read. I never really considered that aspect of the wave. Take it from someone who has spent considerable time hung up on the lip! I'm not surprised there were even more forces (that I was aware of) pushing me off the back of the wave! In my mind I'm imagining a skilled surfer dropping into a steep wave on a small board, no paddling at all, just being in the right position and gravity being the force that gets the surfer down the wave face. As waikikichan mentioned,

Both long and short boards can catch waves without paddling.

My recent success was at a point break on a 3-5ft swell. So I was able to ride a beautiful green open faced wave for almost 50 yards. That wave was MUCH easier to take off on than my local beach break. When the wave has more of that perfect 45 degree A-frame I find it much easier to take off. But when I try catching the super steep waves at my local beach break I often don't even know whether to go right or left. Sometimes the take-off is so steep I feel like I'm skateboarding on a half-pipe with a foot of vert. Making the angled take-off and digging the rail into the wave is so tough. Someday I want to get El Porto wired so I can competently ride my shortboard there. That's my goal!

[oldmansurfer]

some waves are definitely more difficult to take off on. I still recall the first time I saw someone do a no paddle takeoff. There were two guys actually who were lining up on a peak that broke inside of the main break. It was like a wave from an entirely different swell and would wall up an break in this area they were lineup at. I wanted to try it so I went over there and realized that it was a lousy wave. The only thing really good about it was you could takeoff without paddling. These two guys were doing this no paddle takeoff where you shove the board down underwater between your legs then pull it back up and scissors your legs as it comes back up. Later in my surfing life I had a few waves where the wave was steep and I was in the right spot so I just popped up no paddle, no scissors kick, no corking the board. Gravity assists you on a shortboard but on a longboard you can get by with the push from the wave. There are sometime peaks that really suck water up the face. This is because the water gets shallow really fast so the wave lurches up. Those kind of peaks are more difficult to catch. In my recent surfing life maybe 4 years ago or so I had a peak like that. It was about double overhead but it was tubing out. I tried inside of the peak and couldn't catch it, tired at the peak and couldn't catch it. Tried deep to the peak and I could catch it but couldn't get down the face before the wave pitched over. So I went way deep there was another peak and took off there then got speed up and pumped through a huge slack section before the peak I wanted but the wave still broke before I got to where I could attempt to get tubed but I did manage to get around the pitched over section and ride the rest of the wave. I think if I would have seen this wave when I was younger I would have figured out how to get tubed but in my old age I gave up. I wanted to ride some waves. It was pumping just that one peak was attractive but very difficult. Some of surfing is about trial and error. You just have to keep trying different stuff till you find something that works.

[RinkyDink]

This might be completely wrong but it was a theory I came up with during my last session, where I continually fell over and failed (but thats for a different reason)

The volume in bigger boards means three things (for catching waves): you can catch them earlier. you can catch them easier (because there is more volume for the wave to work on) and hence you can be out of position a little bit and still get them, and you can paddle into the right position earlier.

However, the downside is that a sucky wave will suck you up the wave face faster (because of more volume/floatier). So on a bigger board you need more momentum to overcome the water going up the face

On a short board, you dont need as much momentum because the water going up the face has less effect - you arent as floaty. So you just need to be in the right position and take a few strokes. Of course, you need to be in the right position; you simply dont have that margin of error you do with a bigger board. But you also dont need to have the same momentum.

I failed year 10 physics so I may be completely crazy.

I like your theory. I've been theorizing about "sucky waves" and getting hung up in the lip a little myself. The question I am trying to answer is: How can I look at a wave I might take off on and determine whether I'll get hung up in the lip? Getting hung up in the lip seems fairly common in surfing so shouldn't there be a way to avoid it? There are plenty of pros who get hung up in the lip so I don't think it is always a matter of paddling strength. The other day I was investigating this question by watching videos of surfers getting hung up in the lip (I found two vids and stopped. Laziness. ) Nevertheless, I've watched countless surfers experiencing this problem and experienced it myself quite often. I am certain that some of the times I've gotten hung up I have paddled perfectly and done everything correctly, yet, I still got hung up. WTF? I've definitely had my share of hang-ups from weak arms as well

Anyway, the majority of surfers I see who get hung up in the lip are there because they had a weak paddle or tried to get into a wave at the last second. Aside from paddle fitness the hidden factor, hidden to me at least, is often backwash, currents, refraction. If you watch videos of the Wedge, you'll see guys getting hung up all the time. Well, the Wedge has a powerful backwash flowing out of that corner jetty and it creates all kinds of havoc, AKA sucky waves.

Here's a guy getting hung up in the lip at 5:51. I like this video because it makes it pretty clear what the problem is . . . massive backwash.
[YouTube]n_LJo6qwY74

[/YouTube]The thing about backwash (basically water flowing against a wave) is that you often can't see it. At a beach break there is often a lot of chaos out there in front of the impact zone. That's why it helps to know your surf spot. Anyway, here's a good explanation for "sucky waves":

https://www.surfertoday.com/surfing/142 ... refraction (See the graphic below picture)

I meant to talk about buoyancy and volume in terms of getting hung up in the lip, but I gotta run. I might circle back to that later.

[oldmansurfer]

All my boards are buoyant and they never get hung up in the lip so I am going to guess that it's not too much buoyancy. I think it boils down to timing, paddling and positioning and maybe the skill to know things aren't going well and abort instead of popping up and getting hung up in the lip. @dtc I think on some waves you don't need momentum with a shortboard but on others you do.

[RinkyDink]

Another example of massive backwash and getting hung up. Watch the boogie boarder at 0:22. You can track his movement up the face of the incoming wave as the direction of the invisible backwash wave wedging up against the incoming wave. I doubt that body boarder is kicking real hard to get into that wave--he's probably pissing his wetsuit--but even if he were kicking like a madman I don't think he'd make much progress down the face of the wave. In fact, he only gets down the face of the wave by air dropping because the wave face fell out from under him. That's another common feature of backwash I noticed; it will push up against an incoming wave and often drop the bottom out so the rider goes into a free fall. Just my two cents.

[oldmansurfer]

My interpretation is it's just a tactic to get down big faces on a boogie board. It's really hard to get speed so you free fall and if you land it right then you are speeding along on a big wave. I think instead of pissing in his wetsuit he was intending to free fall. Backwash can be a problem but it wasn't on that wave. The Wedge has backwash but it also has lurching up big waves. I surf an area with backwash and it can be a problem especially when it's bigger but if I know there is backwash then I can prepare for it and do tactics to start off with that I reserve for more steep critical waves then when the backwash creates that situation I am already surfing accordingly but it doesn't make me get hung up in the lip.

[dtc]

Water sucking up the face is definitely 'a thing' as can be seen from big wave surfing, where they have to tow in because they cant out paddle the water up the face. However, obviously that principle isn't quite the same for normal sized waves; or at least the principle is the same but the effects are much lower.

Thinking about it a bit more, I wonder if shortboarders are less affected also because they start paddling when the wave is much steeper, thus they quickly get to use the gravity of going down a steep face, and the gravity overcomes any water coming up the face. Which they can do because the lower volume of the board means they have very slightly more time before they are dragged up to the lip ie don't have to be paddling quite as fast/have less water momentum to overcome before gravity wins out.

In any case, at the end of the day, if you are getting caught in the lip then there are well known practical solutions (even if you don't know the physics behind what is causing the problem). But interesting musings.

[oldmansurfer]

Water sucking up the face is definitely 'a thing' as can be seen from big wave surfing, where they have to tow in because they cant out paddle the water up the face. However, obviously that principle isn't quite the same for normal sized waves; or at least the principle is the same but the effects are much lower.

Thinking about it a bit more, I wonder if shortboarders are less affected also because they start paddling when the wave is much steeper, thus they quickly get to use the gravity of going down a steep face, and the gravity overcomes any water coming up the face. Which they can do because the lower volume of the board means they have very slightly more time before they are dragged up to the lip ie don't have to be paddling quite as fast/have less water momentum to overcome before gravity wins out.

In any case, at the end of the day, if you are getting caught in the lip then there are well known practical solutions (even if you don't know the physics behind what is causing the problem). But interesting musings.

Well it's only one experience but I was out one day when the waves were pumping about 10 to 12 foot faces I had my 8 foot fungun. There was this one peak coming in that had a long even breaking face that looked awesome to ride. There were 2 shortboarders there trying to catch waves and I caught a wave and came back out and they said they had been trying to catch a wave there for a while and did everything except for what I did which was in their words "Paddle like crazy method". I went on and caught a bunch of waves there and they moved over to another peak where they could catch waves. Also if you think about it surfers tend to use bigger boards for more difficult to catch waves because they are easier to paddle and get speed. However a shortboarder can takeoff under the lip on the right wave using gravity which isn't as likely with a longer board due to curvature of the wave face and the longer boards not fitting in as well.

[Ratfinksurfer]

That's another common feature of backwash I noticed; it will push up against an incoming wave and often drop the bottom out so the rider goes into a free fall. Just my two cents.

I have definitely had this happen to me. I am currently working on my angled take-offs at my local beach break. And the last time I was setting my rail, made the drop/pop-up, started heading down the line and Woosh! Suddenly nothing is under my board! the backwash hit the wave and just went completely vertical! I was super bummed I wiped out on that wave. Especially since I had finally made a decent angled take-off. I went from slicing through the water to flopping on the trough.

[RinkyDink]

My interpretation is it's just a tactic to get down big faces on a boogie board. It's really hard to get speed so you free fall and if you land it right then you are speeding along on a big wave. I think instead of pissing in his wetsuit he was intending to free fall. Backwash can be a problem but it wasn't on that wave. The Wedge has backwash but it also has lurching up big waves. I surf an area with backwash and it can be a problem especially when it's bigger but if I know there is backwash then I can prepare for it and do tactics to start off with that I reserve for more steep critical waves then when the backwash creates that situation I am already surfing accordingly but it doesn't make me get hung up in the lip.

I agree with your interpretation. I never tire of watching Wedge videos. I loved that wave when I was kid body boarding there so I watch a lot of videos of that place. The waves there just grab my attention. Anyway, from what I can tell from a lot of the videos I've seen, it looks like most of the people who make their waves don't sit on the peak of the wave. They sit off to the side of it because they know (I'm assuming) the flow of water moving up the face of the incoming wave is going to carry them up to the peak where the wave will bottom out and they can free fall onto the face (if they get lucky).

The Wedge has backwash but it also has lurching up big waves. I surf an area with backwash and it can be a problem especially when it's bigger but if I know there is backwash then I can prepare for it and do tactics to start off with that

I'm probably splitting hairs here a bit, but I interpret the waves a little differently from you and Dtc. You guys see one wave sucking water up into it. I see two waves: one wave moving toward the shore and another (often invisible with telltale signs, e.g. a rip current or visible backwash) flowing back out to sea. When the water from the incoming wave meets an outgoing water flow, the wave "lurches" up. It has nothing to do with the contours of the bottom, however. Why is this difference important to me? Well, I want to avoid getting hung up in the lip. If I focus my wave reading exclusively on the incoming wave, then I take my attention away from what is happening with the water flowing back out to sea. That water, I'm convinced, has a huge influence on the wave you might be considering taking off on. In other words, if you want to avoid getting hung up in the lip, then it might be wise to take a gander at what's going on with the water in front of the impact zone.

[RinkyDink]

That's another common feature of backwash I noticed; it will push up against an incoming wave and often drop the bottom out so the rider goes into a free fall. Just my two cents.

I have definitely had this happen to me. I am currently working on my angled take-offs at my local beach break. And the last time I was setting my rail, made the drop/pop-up, started heading down the line and Woosh! Suddenly nothing is under my board! the backwash hit the wave and just went completely vertical! I was super bummed I wiped out on that wave. Especially since I had finally made a decent angled take-off. I went from slicing through the water to flopping on the trough.

I've had it happen from outgoing water dropping the bottom out of a wave, but I've also had it happen because I took too high of a line on the wave. Steep waves will drop out the bottom if you spend too much time up around the lip. Anyway, it's good to be conscious of the different ways things can go awry.

[Ratfinksurfer]

You guys see one wave sucking water up into it. I see two waves: one wave moving toward the shore and another (often invisible with telltale signs, e.g. a rip current or visible backwash) flowing back out to sea. When the water from the incoming wave meets an outgoing water flow, the wave "lurches" up.

I find what you're saying here very interesting RinkyDink. I used to miss a lot of waves when I would try taking off on the shoulder. Then I started watching other surfers doing the same thing I was doing. And I couldn't understand why we were having such a hard time getting into the wave. But when I started paying attention to exactly what you're talking about; the water flowing out or the "backwash", I began to understand. This "shoulder" was actually doubling up and would make paddling into the wave nearly impossible. Now I'm much more aware of where this out-flow of water is hitting the wave. It's a tricky thing to get familiar with, but at a beach break I think you have no choice but to pay attention.