top turn help!

[saltydog]

I've come to the point that I can make a decent bottom turn that can lead to a top turn and then another bottom turn or so. But my top turns are really sluggish and slow. I also suspect I'm making a transition to a top turn too late. Any suggestions for timing or shifting of the weight? I'm mostly riding back side since I'm goofy and I tend to go to right side points.

[oldmansurfer]

Try to keep your weight in front of the wave and below the lip. In order to do a quick top turn your center of gravity needs to stay below the lip so that once you complete the turn you can pull the board back down the face of the wave. If you stand up straight at the top of the wave then you have lost the chance to do that. Just like a bottom turn you need to lean into it which means you are leaning back down the face of the wave. Also maybe you can try turning back down the wave a little sooner instead of getting to the very top of the wave and also a little sooner too as in closer to the pitching lip.

[Tudeo]

my top turns are really sluggish and slow. I also suspect I'm making a transition to a top turn too late.

I had this same problem, key for me was to initiate the top turn earlier, like halfway up. I had to force myself to do that cos it felt strange to start turning that early, but it worked.

Also, when your surfing becomes more dynamic it's like the top turn becomes part of the bottom turn. When you load more weight in your bottom turn by squatting down it's like you can jump up into the top turn. But it's a jump where you almost immediately throw your upper body down and forward, to build the momentum for your legs and board to follow into that turn.

I learned it by first doing it as an end move, so I didn't risk losing my precious rides. Now it's just a natural thing to do, and you can keep enhancing it by putting more speed and power into it.

[dtc]

should be easier backside!

start off by doing a roller coaster or zig zagging along the wave, like tudeo (sort of) said. Just go up and down and up and down. then start making each turn a little bit sharper.

remember the weighting and the hands. hands go anti clockwise then clockwise (wkk says 'open and close the door', I seem to recall). Actually, check out wkk's blog ( http://alohaki.jugem.jp/ ) and do a search for 'top turn' or something like that - there are excellent photos/photo analysis, very useful

[saltydog]

Thank you, oldmansurfer, tudeo, and dtc!

dtc: I didn't know backside top turn was easier. I've assumed everything was harder backside. Took me forever to get to the point to take a drop and make a bottom turn fairly consistantly. I've only surfed front side for a handful of times but I found I can manage without too much trouble

To sum it up, stay below the lip, start the top turn as I come out of the bottom (now I see why they say "linking the moves", each next move is built onto the previous one), start small and eventually make each turn sharper and more fluid, and it's a whole body movement.

The waves at my home break are at most thigh high if that, but I got to work on some. I did find that It's a lot easier on mid length boards than on my 9' longboard. Even a wave storm with a pink single fin is easier for me to whip around. At the same time I've figured out a narrower longboard stance that keeps me more responsive for shifting my weight (no more dreaded poo stance ) so maybe that can help.

[dtc]

dtc: I didn't know backside top turn was easier. I've assumed everything was harder backside. Took me forever to get to the point to take a drop and make a bottom turn fairly consistantly. I've only surfed front side for a handful of times but I found I can manage without too much trouble

its 'easier' because if you are going backside, your top turn is a 'frontside' top turn. its usually easier to turn the way you are facing, in a big part because its much easier to control weighting through your toes than through your heels. Also its easier when you can see where you are going!

Same as for bottom turns - harder to do backside bottom turns than frontside bottom turns.

[oldmansurfer]

Thigh high? Oh well that's going to be difficult to crank a dynamic top turn on any board. You know I quit surfing for about 12 years and then restarted. I found I could still do a reasonable backside bottom turn and off the lip turn on a 9'6" longboard although I had rarely ever ridden a longboard before but this was on substantially larger waves than yours. I am still not entirely sure why that was. When I learned to surf the first time around backside was difficult for me or at least so I thought and I used to practice switch stance on small days because of that. However I did get a decent backside tube ride switch stance before I got one regular stance. It was entirely by accident I lost my balance on the takeoff and ended up going the wrong direction on the wave (backside) and didn't do anything special but I got tubed. Long ago the first time I realized my surfing was improving I was riding a left (I am regular foot)with a bunch of friends who were mostly goofy footers. It was a new wave for all of us but I was getting it dialed in and having a blast when my friends told me they were going in because they weren't having any fun. Shortly after that I quit thinking of backside as more difficult. I think perhaps the reason I did better backside while relearning to surf because it was an all or nothing situation. I had no skill (but I did have some knowledge) and going backside was scary to me on these steep waves at my home break so I put everything into the bottom turn and had no control so I went straight up to the lip and the lip smacked my board knocking it back down. I am pretty sure anyone watching me would have thought I had much more skill than I had but then it was like maybe 75% of the time I made it and the other 25% I got ejected off my board by the lip and tossed forward. At the time I couldn't do anything like that frontside and in fact now that I have some control I am more conservative backside. I think once you get the backside bottom turn down the top turn is easy because you already have your upper body rotated in preparation for the top turn just from turning to look back up at the lip (on bigger waves). Thigh high is just difficult to do a dynamic turn anyway.

[oldmansurfer]

I can do dynamic turns backside on steep waist high waves but before I was able to do that I could do them on bigger waves. So perhaps a way to deal with this is to seek out some head high waves and practice on them and once you get the motion down then try to apply it on thigh high waves.

[oldmansurfer]

On small waves like that you need to really exaggerate the motion. When I do a bottom turn on a small wave like that with the intent of doing a dynamic powerful top turn my head drops to the height of the wave during the turn so I am laying down backwards and crouching and I stay crouching and in front of the wave but slightly extend my legs in mid turn and bend them til the top turn then extend them for the top turn. So I popup take the drop and stand while dropping then crouch and turn at the bottom of the wave extending my legs while leaning into the turn and as I come out the board comes up underneath me and my legs are completely bent and pulled up under me so I am crouching as low as I go then as I hit the top turn my legs extend again and then pull them back under me to bring the board back down the face of the wave. Or if I am trimming along and see a wall to whack I will drop into a crouch suddenly and turn. The dropping down adds force to the turn and helps to keep my weight or center of gravity in front of the wave and below the lip. There is a rhythm and flow to it all which is difficult to learn to do in such a small space (thigh high waves)

[waikikikichan]

Since you're talking about thigh high backside top turns ( or white water rebounds ), how about doing some "Wall Walks" ? Stand with you back at a angle to a wall, pop up onto the wall and put both balls of the foot on it, and immediately come back and land back down. Later as you get better, try to stay up there longer and use your whole bottom of your foot. Then later extend the landing point further and further.
If your bones are to brittle for a wall, then do it on a curb or parking block stopper.

[saltydog]

its 'easier' because if you are going backside, your top turn is a 'frontside' top turn. its usually easier to turn the way you are facing, in a big part because its much easier to control weighting through your toes than through your heels. Also its easier when you can see where you are going!

Same as for bottom turns - harder to do backside bottom turns than frontside bottom turns.

Got it!

On small waves like that you need to really exaggerate the motion. When I do a bottom turn on a small wave like that with the intent of doing a dynamic powerful top turn my head drops to the height of the wave during the turn so I am laying down backwards and crouching and I stay crouching and in front of the wave but slightly extend my legs in mid turn and bend them til the top turn then extend them for the top turn. So I popup take the drop and stand while dropping then crouch and turn at the bottom of the wave extending my legs while leaning into the turn and as I come out the board comes up underneath me and my legs are completely bent and pulled up under me so I am crouching as low as I go then as I hit the top turn my legs extend again and then pull them back under me to bring the board back down the face of the wave. Or if I am trimming along and see a wall to whack I will drop into a crouch suddenly and turn. The dropping down adds force to the turn and helps to keep my weight or center of gravity in front of the wave and below the lip. There is a rhythm and flow to it all which is difficult to learn to do in such a small space (thigh high waves)

Yes, the size of the wave might be an issue. Not enough vertical space as you mentioned. I don't think I'd see anything over waist high until the fall unless I travel, but maybe I can at least try feeble s shape turns and mentally be ready to transition from one move to the next. I can sort of teel how the leg compressing and flexing while skateboarding, so I'll practice on land as well.

Since you're talking about thigh high backside top turns ( or white water rebounds ), how about doing some "Wall Walks" ? Stand with you back at a angle to a wall, pop up onto the wall and put both balls of the foot on it, and immediately come back and land back down. Later as you get better, try to stay up there longer and use your whole bottom of your foot. Then later extend the landing point further and further.
If your bones are to brittle for a wall, then do it on a curb or parking block stopper.

Interesting! I'll try that onto a couch or a bed (to protect my aging joints). I'm supposed to hop on top of the wall not the vertical part, right?

[waikikikichan]

I'll try that onto a couch or a bed (to protect my aging joints). I'm supposed to hop on top of the wall not the vertical part, right?

The Vertical part, so you can learn to push against the wave as it pushes against you. But yeah, if you can't or it's to risky, pop up onto something solid, not a couch or bed. How about a grassy hill side ?
When you're on the flat ground ( bottom turn ) look up to the hill, wall, etc. Pop up and before you plant up there, sight your landing spot, further down and away from where you started. Get used to you eyes leading the move. Very important to backside surfing.

[oldmansurfer]

I think as you advance through surfing it becomes a matter of whole body coordination. it's not just moving your legs or your arms but moving your whole body through space from one point to another along the wave. Doing more powerful turns require that you temporarily position yourself to be falling or if you stopped in that position you would fall. like jumping onto a wall like that for a moment your feet are on the wall but it is momentum that keeps it there and soon that force will wear off so you have to jump back down or fall back down. I guess that one of the reasons I learned to surf quickly the first time around was that I enjoyed doing a few activities that required whole body coordination. One was downhill trail running so I would hike up a mountain and run back down it often jumping from one spot to the next in steep areas. Another was rock hopping where I jumped from boulder to boulder in stream beds or other areas usually shoreline that had lots of boulders. While this is probably a very dangerous activity I was never injured and could actually run full tilt across a span of boulders. The other I called downhill washout running and what it was is I hiked a lot and looked for areas where there was erosion on a hill or mountain that resulted in the formation of a small gulley where water runs down and cuts into the dirt and rocks forming a V shaped small riverlet when it rains. I run down them by jumping back and forth from side to side because you can't stay on one side unless it is turning and you are moving but jumping back and forth changes your momentum temporarily allowing me to take a foot step or two before having to jump back to the other side. I don't do any of these things in my old age but I do surf in challenging conditions that require whole body coordination.

[dtc]

Here is a classic example of what Oldman is not talking about when he mentions whole body co-ordination. And waikikichan, when I saw this I instantly thought of all your exhortations about moving all of your body and not flailing around with your arms... [not sure how to embed an instagram video)


https://www.instagram.com/p/BWYmvv-DccD/?hl=en

[waikikikichan]

I guarantee she wholeheartedly thinks she is Pumping and Carving. In her mind, it works and she's ripping. Until she sees herself on video or someone points it out to her otherwise. She's happy.

[jaffa1949]

Ah there it is , the truth of viewing our surfing on a video. What we thought was really hot shrivels down to a lot less. Humble pie is eaten freely unless we are blind, in sight or in opinion.

Great tool though if you wish to critique and improve. Nose mounted GoPros excepted they = vision of epileptic dance in the shower.
Right up there with death by selfie

[saltydog]

I'll try that onto a couch or a bed (to protect my aging joints). I'm supposed to hop on top of the wall not the vertical part, right?

The Vertical part, so you can learn to push against the wave as it pushes against you. But yeah, if you can't or it's to risky, pop up onto something solid, not a couch or bed. How about a grassy hill side ?
When you're on the flat ground ( bottom turn ) look up to the hill, wall, etc. Pop up and before you plant up there, sight your landing spot, further down and away from where you started. Get used to you eyes leading the move. Very important to backside surfing.

Thanks for clarifying. I'll go around looking for a good spot to work on this.

I think as you advance through surfing it becomes a matter of whole body coordination. it's not just moving your legs or your arms but moving your whole body through space from one point to another along the wave. Doing more powerful turns require that you temporarily position yourself to be falling or if you stopped in that position you would fall. like jumping onto a wall like that for a moment your feet are on the wall but it is momentum that keeps it there and soon that force will wear off so you have to jump back down or fall back down.

This whole body coordination and can't-stop-in-the-particular-position-while-turing part reminds me of when I was on a downhill ski team.(I wasn't very good at all as a racer) And yes, there were people who flap their arms like birds while turning during the runs

I'll also look around for a good sloped parking lot to skate on with my carver. I'm not sure I feel brave enough to venture out into a skate park