collision today and dramatic aftermath

[zorba]

Surfing in Peru today I was involved in a collision of sorts.

Its a busy point break, and this afternoon there were 20 to 30 surfers. The surfschool instructors and their charges took up the tail end of the line up.. which can be like 50 to 100m between the closest to the point and the furthest down the shoulder, so usually well spaced out. At the surf school end, there were 2 or 3 of the "tandem" board set up (beginner on the long board, instructor hanging on the back to direct and guide).

I started out surfing in front of the surf schoolers, but later I found myself further up the lineup, maybe in position 5?
I had already been talked to by someone for dropping in on his wave (even though I kicked off immediately), and I know this break well now (8 days surfing) and the etiquette is that first up takes ownership (very loudly at times lol), so I was hyper conscious about not dropping in, and watching intently up the line if I went for a wave, ready to pull out.

Well I took a wave: no one on my inside was going for, for once, and all of a sudden a few seconds after pop up, I realise I´m headed straight for a bunch of surfschoolers. I was going pretty much diagonal. There were 2x tandem boards and maybe one or two others, seemed like 5 or 6 people and 3 or 4 boards, i´m not sure it all happened so fast.

I saw them it seemed with 5m to spare, and they were all bunched together about 4m across. There was no space between them, no route through, and I didn´t feel I could swerve round them in time. I went instinctively for the the instructor in the middle (the students were girls mainly, it seemed), I guess I was feeling instinctively he had more experience and could duck under me, get out of the way, whatever. I leaned back on the board to lift the nose to give him a chance to fend it off with his hands-arms.

Thankfully I didn´t connect with any humans, but I was pretty shaken up afterwards, it was a close call. I did seem to go over board(s) though.

Anyway, aftewards the instructor guy in who had been in the middle gave me an earful, saying I shouldn´t have taken off so close to people blah blah. I´m still learning Spanish.

A few minutes later I was making my way back out and he called at me from much closer to the beach saying I´d cut up his board with this fins. He paddled over and showed me the tip of a fibreglass shortboard that had a cut etched into the nose (4 to 5 inches, running parellel to the stringer. He seemed to be demanding that I pay for it, and I said No, having read on here and other places that its the responsibility of the person in the way to get out of the way.

He was quite aggresive, pulling at my board and ordering me out of the water. I said I wasn´t paying for his board nor leaving and pushed him away. Then it seems he threatened me with something "out of the water". Not one hundred per cent sure of the words but it was all there in body language.

It seems double standards. I see people taking off all the time through traffic of people coming back out. About half an hour earlier someone on a wave swished past in front of me, narrowly missing the tip of my board.

The other day I had to do a slalom around 3 or 4, but at least there was space between.

The surf instructors drop in all the time on people, it seems they think this is their part of the beach (the tail of the line up).

I felt I started out well up the line up and was not expecting to see surf school so close after take off. I don´t think they should have been so bunched either, what do you think guys?
Maybe I was mistaken about my initial position because of drift (but if anything the drift today was towards the point, with the wind, cross on). Maybe they drifted into this part of the line up, having a chat or a crack.

Thinking about it after I got out of the water, I´m not even sure the board he showed me was the same one he was on. I mean surely he would have seen the damage immediately and drawn my attention to it there and then? I´m concerned he might have gone to the shore, grabbed an already damaged board and tried to take advantage of me being the foreigner, greenhorn, non Spanish speaker. There was no damage to the three fins on my 8ft funboard (is this normal?). And why was he teaching with a fibreglass shortboard with a pointed nose? Maybe the had a child or adolescent. Anyway, I can´t be sure one way or the other if it was the same board he had in the collision.

I was a bit shook up after the exchange. I paddled out again looking out for the guy all the time (to avoid him!). I didn´t see him. I went to the tail end, 10m or more past the last of the surf schoolers. I didn´t catch anything and after 20mins decided I was too shaky and better to get in ASAP in case the guy was waiting for me on the beach. Dusk was falling and I didn´t want to meet him if there were fewer people around and darker.

My mate had a situation back in Ireland where somebody waited for him in the carpark and hassled him over damage to a board. Thankfully it didn´t end in blows.

[Lebowski]

Well, first of all, you need to have greater awareness and not take off on waves where an immediate collision is likely.

Although it is technically up to them to get out of the way, realistically beginner surfers have often not learnt the rules, and even if they have, they have too much going on to remember.

A collision involves two or more people, and it's up to both parties to try and avoid it. If this blows your wave, so be it.

I can't comment on whether he was taking advantage of you but I probably wouldn't have paid in that situation either (although you definitely carry some of the blame).

[jaffa1949]

Simple thought here, if you cannot control your board stay away from other surfers. You don't know how to pull out, already discussed at length. Stay away from learner schools they know even less than you
In many lineups your behaviour would get you punched out. 10 metres is not much for avoidance.
Bluntly, from this and your other posts you don't know how to read the line up ( yet) you haven't developed 360 degree awareness of what is going on around you (Yet) you don't know a break well after 8 days.
You also have committed the crime of being a foreigner ( surf break rules change in different. Countries) an aware and surf wise and surf capable foreign who can fit in with the line up can get some respect and waves.
You do not fit that bill yet, but you might have to pay for repairs, if the issue is pushed.
As we said before get out of the point break line up no matter how long it is, you are not ready to handle crowds, you also need an awareness that paddling surfers need to paddle into the white water behind a riding surfer not try and beat them to the shoulder.
We want you to be at home in the line up not being a navigational hazard at risk of collision injury or being punched out on the beach.
Edited added a little later, it is you that is the problem and listen to what is being offered as advice.

[waikikikichan]

He seemed to be demanding that I pay for it, and I said No, having read on here and other places that its the responsibility of the person in the way to get out of the way.

Sorry, but NO, YOU should pay. The responsibility lands on you once you become irresponsible or when you loose control ( or lack of it ) of your board. You are not aware of your surrounding. You don't have proper technique to kick off a wave safely. You don't have respect for the local instructors and the area they are occupying.
You do that that same thing in Hawaii, trust me, the surf instructors won't even talk to you. You are lucky that guy did.

I had already been talked to by someone for dropping in on his wave (even though I kicked off immediately), and I know this break well now (8 days surfing) and the etiquette is that first up takes ownership (very loudly at times lol), .

So before the collision happened, you were already yelled at once (seems to be a common occurrence). So what if you "kicked out immediately" ? You broke the lip or chandelier-ed the wave on to the guy, as your board pulled thru. You just don't know what happens to the rider, just like before when you "left the board" on the wave.

What's worse than a Kook. A kook that's dangerous and makes excuses . Try not to be that. Get your skills up and learn to make friends, not enemies out in the water.

[oldmansurfer]

Each lineup has different rules. If you were in control of your board then that was a jerk thing to do. If you could not control your board then perhaps that is not the right break for you at this point in time

[Tudeo]

Surfing in crowds is just incredible more difficult than surfing empty waves. Next to all the difficulties involved with actually surfing there is so much more to look out for, and it's dangerous.
Better avoid as much as possible the crowded spots and try to find a more quiet wave. If the quiet wave is of (much) lesser quality then the crowded one, it doesn't mean you can't have fun with it.
If your experience and skills improve you can surf in crowds and feel comfortable doing so. Just don't surf too uncomfortable conditions, it means you're not ready for it.

[RinkyDink]

Learning to pop up and ride along the face of a small wave might actually be the easiest part of learning to surf. The difficult part of the sport as well as the most frustrating is learning how to surf in crowds. Some surf spots are really almost like slalom skiing spots; there's just no avoiding having to maneuver around two or more surfers after takeoff on practically every wave. When I find myself at a spot like that, which is most of the time on weekends, I surf the shoulder or wait for scraps. I'm patient though. I just like being in the water and it's not the end of the world if I only get a few waves a session. One thing I am sure of though, everything is safer and easier when you're not tired. If you're not in shape or still getting into good condition, then avoid situations where you need to make split second decisions.

[Big H]

You need more awareness.....I'm guessing you were already shoulder hopping, down the wave from the peak and the heart of the lineup since you keep getting yelled at down there....so you are down the wave and near a surf school which somehow you weren't aware of, taking off where no one else was with a school of straight riding newbies on your line.

You flat out have to be better than this. Spend a session or two where you practice paddling for waves, catching then pulling off before standing. Practice avoiding something that is in your line. Get your head up and have a look around before you paddle, while you paddle and when you are up on the wave.....not only better body form than looking at your feet or board, but "surprises" happen a lot less.

My first 6 months surfing I went to nearly empty breaks....usually closeouts at the wrong tide levels, no one else wanted to "ride" there....wasn't much to ride, but I practiced popping up, positioning, paddling and did so without the worry of navigating a lineup so I could focus my attention on the basic stuff I could barely handle which occupied my full attention.

Everyone here gave you some very good advice; save this thread and read each person's contributions. Everyone here is trying to help you (and whomever might be reading this that finds themselves in a similar position).....we are not bagging on you. On the contrary, selfishly, we want everyone reading this to learn from your mistakes, benefit from the lessons learned and improve.......so OUR surfing experiences might be affected for the better.

-Get your head up, have a look around and be responsible for what is going on around you.
-Don't drop in.
-Don't set up off the peak and try to sneak in down the line.
-Don't set up next to a surf school that will be on your line; guaranteed two or three straight riding beginners will take each wave of the set; you will never have a clean shot at a wave and will only wind up running into one of them.
-If surf schools set up on the tail of the wave down the beach from the peak all the time, that IS their section of the beach; respect the fact that they don't drag the school to the main peak like schools do here.
-Stay away from schools and from experienced surfers....if you are the worst surfer in the lineup consider if you should be there or not.
-Try to take a minute to understand the WHY behind when people yell at you. You dropped in on someone when you were down the wave away from the peak; I'm sure he saw you a mile away, thinking to himself that he would have to be careful of the beginner who was set up to drop in on someone should a decent wave come along. So when you did it was maddening for him.


I had a guy who was a beginner who decided to shadow me two days ago.....swell is super small but this guy couldn't sort out where to paddle to catch a wave.....so he started to follow me. I went this way, he did as well....went back over that way 100m....he was right there. Thing was he didn't set up next to me....rather he was on a shorter board so he sat 10m closer to the beach and 10m inside me - which whether he knew it or not was right on my line. I yelled at him to get off my line when a set was approaching, but instead he lay down on his board and got ready to paddle. I got the wave, gave a shout, came down the line and pushed him back by grabbing the nose of his board and shoving it back and up in the air, yelling at him at the same time since he was intent on catching the wave and apparently either did not look or care since he kept paddling hard and trying to catch the wave even after I'd gotten up and was hooting at him. I knew what was going to happen before the wave came; maybe that guy learned from that, maybe not. I hope you can.

[Big H]

Reading your post again got me a little mad......that bit about what kind of board an instructor should be on for a surf lesson? He should be using only tuflite epoxy tankers in case you come and run over his school!?!?!? You said you ran over board(s)!?!?! You know how much boards cost right!?! And you blithely surf right into a school of beginner girls, run over a few boards and aim for a person who you felt could best save themselves since you were out of control/unable to control your board!!!!

You should pay and honestly you deserved a little retribution on the spot; surprised you didn't get a smack - you deserved it! Might still get one if you keep going back there; find another place to surf and practice; you need to be better before going into a crowd.

[RinkyDink]

It is easy to screw up as a beginner, especially in crowded conditions. I've had a couple of occasions where I was dogging it in the water and gotten in people's way. I had a surfer grumble at me. I was trying to get out of his way by paddling toward the white water behind him, but ended up blocking him and screwing up his wave (I had good intentions, but still made a kooky miscalculation. I apologized. Nothing else I could do.) I haven't had a collision yet, but I've come close to hitting beginners who got in my way. If you're surfing a fairly uncrowded beach break, it seems like parents tell their kids to go into the water near you so you can act like a kind of lifeguard in case the kid gets into trouble. I hate that, but it's just another hazard of the sport. The closer you get to shore, the closer you get to walls of people. The important thing is to learn from your screwups. If you're having them a lot, then it's time to slow down and maybe just paddle out to observe the hazards and come up with a plan for dealing with them that allows you to get some practice time in without becoming a hazard to someone else.

[dtc]

Reading your post again got me a little mad......that bit about what kind of board an instructor should be on for a surf lesson? He should be using only tuflite epoxy tankers in case you come and run over his school!?!?!? You said you ran over board(s)!?!?! You know how much boards cost right!?! And you blithely surf right into a school of beginner girls, run over a few boards and aim for a person who you felt could best save themselves since you were out of control/unable to control your board!!!!

You should pay and honestly you deserved a little retribution on the spot; surprised you didn't get a smack - you deserved it! Might still get one if you keep going back there; find another place to surf and practice; you need to be better before going into a crowd.

I don't entirely agree. If you take off on a wave and you are surfing down the line, then there shouldn't be a bunch of people laying on their boards blocking that corridor. The surf school should have been several metres further out and out of the way. They were in the wrong place and the instructors should know that beginners will not know what to do if another surfer comes barrelling along.

That said, a sharp turn towards the beach or over the back of the wave should have (a) been feasible and (b) known to be required a lot earlier if the OP had been looking forward or had been paying attention to where the other surfers were positioned (even before taking off)

[zorba]

Thanks for all the replies folks. I've read through everything twice and still digesting.

[zorba]

Well, first of all, you need to have greater awareness and not take off on waves where an immediate collision is likely.

These guys from the surfschool were not in my awareness at all until I saw them. They were not within 50m of me outside or closer to the beach when I decided to go for the wave. There was hardy anybody left in the line up as a good set had come through just before.

I think they were coming back out, but seemed to be ultra leisurely at the point when I saw them (they were facing the waves, but more focused in on themselves, like they were having a chat... BTW earlier I saw one of the instructors chatting away happily with his student, a pretty woman who was sat up with her feet on the board with her back to the waves. The other student was a girl too.) It had the look of a social hangout, what I saw when I first saw them. It seemed to me they had their attention on other things.

It was a fairly steep wave and I managed to get turned and down the line, so maybe I covered more lateral ground sideways than I or them were expecting. But still, someone on a shortboard would have made that distance, and in less time. So yes, they were in the line. The wave was still steep when I saw them, so true enough, I didn´t have the skills to get round them in those conditions. I can turn and slalom through surfers, I´ve done this before. One problem was the bunching. They presented a wide target to me with no way through.

In the time I took between deciding to go for the wave, and seeing them (paddling towards the peak, turning my fat 8ft funboard, paddling for the wave, checking for other surfers, popping up, getting turned sideways and stablizing myself in the steep wave), they got into my line. They weren´t in my world when I was paddling for the wave, or I already would have been thinking about avoiding them, pulling out if they were too close).

What I can take from this is practicing more in these conditions so I get more comfortable with the pop up and turn in steep waves, so I can give more attention to what might be down the line (and also incidentally so I can better read the wave by looking around).

They were clearly in my line and like I said originally, I´m fairly clear they weren´t in the part of the break where they normally are. Still, I take some responsibility for what happened, for not being skilled enough to take that wave relaxed enough to still be able to give my attention to what might be in front of me down the line.

[saltydog]

Surf schools can hog the area and go about their business without an ounce of mind to others. Students don't know or think of the etiquette. And the instructors are usually focused on the lessons, although I've seen better ones that moved the students a little deeper inside so other surfers can take off right slightly off the peak and have their rides. It's safer to avoid them altogether. If not schools there's always a bunch of beginners floating around. I'm certain I was/am guilty of being at the wrong place at the wrong time.

Anyway, work on collision avoidance maneuvers. It can be annoying but that's a part of sharing the ocean.

[zorba]

Simple thought here, if you cannot control your board stay away from other surfers.

I went out the next day and played it very cautious. It was glassier at least. I found a beach break that was working for a bit. I had already decided to practice popping up and immediately kicking off, and this beach break closed out quickly so that became an imperative. But then the beach break stopped working after half an hour and I had to take my chances on the only other part working, the point break (which is usually the only part working).

A beginner dropped in on me at one point, and went straight, forcing me to straighten out. He still hit me and we both wiped because in his panic he turned slightly more towards the peak. No big deal, no big impact. I politely suggested he shouldn´t have dropped in on me and he apologised. I said thanks mate, don´t worry and went on my way. My first time pulling somebody up, I was nearly more apologetic than he was lol. Probably the first time anyone ever brought this up with him. I saw 5mins later that he was with an instructor who was behind him guiding him and shoving him onto waves. No doubt it was the instructor´s call to take my wave. I´d taken a few classes earlier in the past fortnight and the instructors were blithely telling me to take waves others were on, and shoving me into their way. I pulled off prone if I saw other surfers on the wave, and once when I saw too late I kicked off. My instructor seemed incredulous that I wasn´t taking those waves lol.

You don't know how to pull out, already discussed at length.

I don´t know where you´re getting that from from what I said in this post?
If you mean pulling out before catching the wave? check: can do it, was doing it all the time the past several sessions. Stop paddling, lean back while still prone and steer the board away from the peak.
If you mean "kicking off": getting off the wave after popup, yes can do that now too (as mentioned in the original post).

you also need an awareness that paddling surfers need to paddle into the white water behind a riding surfer not try and beat them to the shoulder.

But if I´m making the shoulder a good ten metres at least in front of the peak/surfer, surely that is better than taking the impact and ending up being in the line of fire for another one or several waves?

The guy on the wave who cut very close to me as mentioned above, this was not a paddling issue. I´m not blaming him. I was in the water after a ride, collecting my board ASAP. I got it and pointed towards the direction he was coming from to lesson the size of the target.

The rest of what you say is fair enough and thanks for the advice.

[zorba]

I had already been talked to by someone for dropping in on his wave (even though I kicked off immediately), and I know this break well now (8 days surfing) and the etiquette is that first up takes ownership (very loudly at times lol), .

So before the collision happened, you were already yelled at once (seems to be a common occurrence). So what if you "kicked out immediately" ? You broke the lip or chandelier-ed the wave on to the guy, as your board pulled thru. You just don't know what happens to the rider, just like before when you "left the board" on the wave.

What's worse than a Kook. A kook that's dangerous and makes excuses . Try not to be that. Get your skills up and learn to make friends, not enemies out in the water.

Ok mate, first thanks for responding. When I was taking off this guy was not to be seen, he came from very deep very fast AND WAS STILL A LONG WAY OFF (20m) when I saw him on the wave. I could easily have turned and rode the wave down the line 10m to 20m in front of him, but I kicked off immediately. At no point did he "yell" at me, don´t know where you got that from. Just the next time we crossed paths paddling back in he turned to me and said "look out for others on the wave", more friendly advice. I didn´t interrupt his ride. I know that because I saw it. The point of this post was not about that incident, so I didn´t go into exhaustive detail about it. You took a few facts and invented something.

I think you have a certain viewpoint of what I´m like as a surfer and seem determined to hang me out to dry. But anyway, all responses are welcome, trying to learn from the bits I can learn from.

Sure, I need to work on my skills, so I can pay MORE attention to whats happening up the line, as well as down the line.

As regards your other comments about violence, I can handle myself fairly well but try and avoid violence as a way of sorting out issues. Surely there are other ways to handle this sort of thing like education. If its something you feel so strongly about start an awareness campaign or something. There seems to be a gap between what you learn in surf school and what is expected in the line up. What if there were information boards on the beach with the rules on them? What if there was a certificate you could take that that taught all this, and you couldnt go out unsupervised without having it?

[jaffa1949]

Now we have you really thinking about things, and your presence in the water is less fraught.
Of course you can paddle over the shoulder if there is enough space, if the there is a wide avoiding route out great.
It is easy to misjudge the riders speed on a wave.
That also applies if you are paddling for a wave and have to pull back and leave it because someone is up and riding.

It sounds like the surf school were thinking they owned the beach, ( in some countries they may have been given rights to a section of beach). But their teaching wave etiquette is lacking. Just like their water logged soft boards ( same school? ) pretty much shows they are cowboy school.

None of which means you should not have etiquette.

Some beaches do put up rules of the road, not everyone abides by them unfortunately, some beaches do have guys that try to enforce the rules physically and in a foreign land they usually have friends on the beach.
There are a lot of surfers who are self entitled and obnoxious.

I have been straight with you, but you are listening and responding well,so all is well.

BTW I am composing my answers based on all your posts as I read them to understand and offer a better answer, I suspect Waikikikichan is too.
I know too that carelessness has caused serious injury either to us or friends.

Keep asking keep learning keep enjoying

[Lebowski]

Also, if the group of beginners was actually an area of rocks sticking out of the water, it would be solely up to you to avoid them. You need to try and be aware of what is ahead on the wave. People can't move very fast in water so at the point of take off you should have a good idea of what hazards lie ahead.

[waikikikichan]

I think you have a certain viewpoint of what I´m like as a surfer and seem determined to hang me out to dry. But anyway, all responses are welcome, trying to learn from the bits I can learn from.

You're exactly right, Zorba. I am determined. I AM DETERMINED TO MAKE YOU A BETTER SURFER. You wanted critic of your surfing, i gave it to you. You wanted the wrongs pointed out so that you can correct them, I did. You want those who have gone thru those experiences to share the do's and don't so you don't make the same, I did. But okay, maybe I only pointed out negatives and it doesn't seem fair and balanced. Well, as time goes by there will be and you will share them with us. That's the positive I see, you post questions and come back and give us more info of how your doing.

If its something you feel so strongly about start an awareness campaign or something.

1) I write a surfing technique Blog geared towards the beginner-intermediate surfer
2) I am writing a book about the "unwritten rules" of surfing
3) I do one on one training over the internet. Let me know if you want to sign up.
3) I contribute on this surf forum freely ( which happens to be the best I've found )

What if there were information boards on the beach with the rules on them? What if there was a certificate you could take that that taught all this, and you couldnt go out unsupervised without having it?

1) There are signs , especially on Australian beaches, ( but sadly snowboarders and skaters don't tend to read them )
2) The companies teaching and giving those certificates will make good money. The 2nd biggest money maker will be the guys selling counterfeit ones.

[zorba]

Spend a session or two where you practice paddling for waves, catching then pulling off before standing.

I´ve picked this up, more from watching others than anything. They catch the wave, and then if they decide to pull out they lean back as far as they can (probably putting their hands way back on the board, like in front of hips) and they lean on the side of the board towards the shoulder, so they turn out towards the shoulder. Does that sound about right?

I can manage the above on gentler waves, and earlier in the wave. Tried it once on a steeper/deep wave when I spotted somebody else on the wave at the last second. Problem was I couldn´t get off the wave past the crest, no matter how much I leaned back and to the side. I went shooting off down the line in a prone position till I eventually hit the shoulder, then I could get off.

I had a class today and I asked the teacher to focus on exiting the wave, both standing and prone. He didn´t do it. I exited early on a few and asked him once about my technique (standing). "Okay" was all he said. Guess he´d never taught this skill before. Most surf schools seem set up for total beginners only (other instructor inside us kept shoving his straight riding students out in front of me *every* time. I asked my instructor to have a word with him to no avail. We had to move in the end to right in front of the reef. But at least I could turn off.)

Any tips or videos to help me improve on exiting after catching the wave (both standing and prone)? I searched youtube but couldn´t find anything. Its my big focus yesterday and today. Back in the water now for afternoon session, thanks.