Paddling - Elbow too high?

[Oldie]

Hi all,

Returning from my two weeks of surfing in France, I am completely stoked. I had more and more success in catching and riding green waves and doing some trimming down the line. Nothing that will have looked great, but the feeling of gliding across the wave face is soo fantastic.

I have worked over the last months a lot on paddle fitness and upper body strength, practised pop ups every day, changed my position on the board more forward and all that indeed helped.

However, still my paddling feels a bit inefficient and while I have catched a lot of waves, I also missed a lot that I think were gettable.

This is one example of a nice wave I just missed. And here I see that my elbow is pretty high. That is nothing I consioucly do. Is this correct or should it be deeper. I wonder becasue I read some articles promoting a high elbow? Should my arm not be straighter and my hand deeper at this moment?

..

[oldmansurfer]

In that position your board is lifted away from the water and it's a bit late for paddling. If you reach forward there it is only air and so basically too late to paddle or you missed the wave already. One thing you might do in that situation is to push the front of the board down to tilt it forward and get it to slide down the wave. If it works then you need to quickly move your hands from the nose back to your normal popup position and popup.

[drowningbitbybit]

you missed the wave already. One thing you might do in that situation is to push the front of the board down to tilt it forward and get it to slide down the wave.

^^^^ What he said.

[waikikikichan]

Can't tell exactly from one photo, but it seems you are doing a "Unilateral" paddle ( both hands in the water at the same time ). It is better to go to a Bilateral paddle ( one hand enters the water at a time ).

[waikikikichan]

And here I see that my elbow is pretty high. That is nothing I consioucly do. Is this correct or should it be deeper. I wonder becasue I read some articles promoting a high elbow? Should my arm not be straighter and my hand deeper at this moment?

You seem to have a misunderstanding of "when" the elbow is high. It is only on the RETURN PHASE of the paddle stroke. After a full stroke back, and the finger tips reaches it's furthest point, your elbow initiates the arm coming forward on the return phase. A lot of beginners initiate with the hand first, which leads to the inefficient windmill paddle - hand high elbow low.

[dtc]

Just to ensure no confusion...

In swimming there are two high elbow movements - the high elbow catch (hand in the water) and the high elbow return (hand out of the water).

The benefits of the high elbow catch/stroke over the deep stroke are seen as

- reducing drag - NOT very relevant to surfing because the drag mostly comes from the board not our arms/body
- being more efficient - requires less power/muscle but achieves almost the same forward momentum, so less tiring over distance. It also uses the lat (back) muscles rather than the shoulder muscles. This IS useful for surfing when you are doing standard paddling ie not to catch a wave.

However, when you want power in surfing then you are much better off doing short deep strokes. Yes it uses your shoulders more and yes its tiring, but you only need it for a few seconds (unlike swimming).

The high elbow return is designed to put less stress on the shoulders, but really its more about not having a straight arm return (which stress shoulders) than high elbow necessarily. What you dont want is a really wide flat recovery. However, keep in mind that this is a stroke for flat pools where a high elbow and fingers just about the water works because you arent facing chop and waves and variable water height. Its almost impossible to do a high elbow return in surfing because you cant get your hands high enough above the water and you cant rotate your body - you will end up a bit more rounded.

So...
- you missed the wave so your paddling problems were before the photo

- when paddling for the wave deep hard short fast strokes (eg as soon as your hand get to your hips, out of the wave ready for the next one - if anyone has done dragon boating, its like the starting 20 strokes - short, deep, hard)

- when normal paddling, then do try to keep a high elbow return and a higher elbow catch - more efficient and less prone to injury. But not as powerful. Lift the elbow out, not the hand.

[Big H]

...if anyone has done dragon boating, its like the starting 20 strokes - short, deep, hard...

Sometimes less than 20 can be OK too....especially if there's someplace you gotta be......

[icetime]

Well on that wave he's too far on the shoulder which is probably why he didn't catch it, not really sure if the entire elbow thing caused it but I kind of doubt it

[Oldie]

Thank you all for feedback. This is maybe not an ideal picture as my question is not about that specific wave, But I do not have other pics. I may have missed that wave for other reasons, too.

My main question for understanding - at the deepest point of the catch phase, should not the arm be more or less extended? And would that not be when the hand is below the shoulder? It seems to me that in that picture, I start the return quite early.

[oldmansurfer]

I found a instructive video and article about paddling http://www.surfertoday.com/surfing/10255-how-to-paddle-faster-for-waves It goes over how Kelly Slater paddles. It explains very well about the elbow

[waikikikichan]

Can you please answer the question if you paddle with both hands in the water at the same time or one hand is opposite of the other ?

My main question for understanding - at the deepest point of the catch phase, should not the arm be more or less extended? And would that not be when the hand is below the shoulder? It seems to me that in that picture, I start the return quite early.

At my deepest point, my elbow is bent and my palm is facing back to the feet.
Yes, the hand is below the shoulder when it's deep in the water.
Your picture does not show a Return phase, when the hand is coming out of the water, it looks to be more mid stroke.

[Oldie]

Can you please answer the question if you paddle with both hands in the water at the same time or one hand is opposite of the other ?

I do not paddle with both hands in the water at the same time. I paddle with the hands opposite of each other.

[dtc]

My main question for understanding - at the deepest point of the catch phase, should not the arm be more or less extended? And would that not be when the hand is below the shoulder? It seems to me that in that picture, I start the return quite early.

At my deepest point, my elbow is bent and my palm is facing back to the feet.
Yes, the hand is below the shoulder when it's deep in the water.
Your picture does not show a Return phase, when the hand is coming out of the water, it looks to be more mid stroke.

If you have your arm totally extended, then you are rotating around and using the shoulder only. The shoulder isnt a particularly tough joint, some parts of it (eg rotator cuff) are very small. So you need some arm bend, which activates the lats. Wkk describes how it 'should' be.

Secondly, think about how propulsion works. When your hand enters the water its pushing downwards - no use to you going forward. Once its past your hip its pushing upwards, again no use. The power comes from about the 45 degree forward to 45 degree back arc - one reason the 'elbow high' swim stroke is efficient is because it puts the hand in a position where its more or less moving straight back (and not in a curve) during this arc - thus maximising the push back on the water (and you going forward). As well, if you push your arm deep into the water, you are spending more time pushing downwards (first part of the stroke) and upwards (at the end), which is tiring and not pushing you forward. Yes you need to go deeper than a normal paddle stroke, and pull hard, but not to excess

However, there is no perfect stroke for everyone. Check out Janet Evans.