Speed Hull Takeoff advice

[oldmansurfer]

Well that is interesting. That board seems to have a v all the way to the tail even the middle part is convex or sloping up to the rails. Pretty sure I haven't ever closely examined a board like that. The boards I surfed with v tails you could see it coming off the front and back of the single glassed in fin and if you placed something flat it went slightly concave in the middle to front part.

[shaaaaaan2020]

Nice board. That seems like a deep Vee to me. About the same as Surfboards La Jolla was doing back in the 60's.. except it looks like it runs almost the full length of the board.

It's a little hard to tell from this angle but I would guess it's about the same as yours at the nose. The edge on the rail runs almost thru the center point, between the deck and belly.

20200921_190117 (2).jpg

hey man - that thing is awesome - looks really interesting. Fin almost looks too small - haha - but I'm sure whoever designed it knew what they were doing. I'm curious - what kindof waves / conditions have you had the most success in on the hull? Like... bigger surf, but sticking to the corners? Less-steep high tide surf. Or just grovelly stuff? Mine feels like it wants to go fast, but I can't imagine taking off at the peak of a 3-5ft wave and screaming into a bottom turn on this thing yet. thx! sk

[Naeco78]

Nice board. That seems like a deep Vee to me. About the same as Surfboards La Jolla was doing back in the 60's.. except it looks like it runs almost the full length of the board.

It's a little hard to tell from this angle but I would guess it's about the same as yours at the nose. The edge on the rail runs almost thru the center point, between the deck and belly.

20200921_190117 (2).jpg

hey man - that thing is awesome - looks really interesting. Fin almost looks too small - haha - but I'm sure whoever designed it knew what they were doing. I'm curious - what kindof waves / conditions have you had the most success in on the hull? Like... bigger surf, but sticking to the corners? Less-steep high tide surf. Or just grovelly stuff? Mine feels like it wants to go fast, but I can't imagine taking off at the peak of a 3-5ft wave and screaming into a bottom turn on this thing yet. thx! sk

I think it was made with places like Black's Beach so it's kinda out of it's element here in the Northeast beach breaks haha. First time I took it out.. it was on a building hurricane swell around chest to head head high and choppy. It was exactly like Devon said in that video.. It felt like i stood up on a slip-and-slide and then feel flat on my face . It feels incredibly unstable out in the flats.
I've been trying to use it mostly on glassy and steep days and search for corners of waves to get used to it more. It doesnt feel like it needs big waves.. just has to be kinda bowly before the board starts to come alive. It's also an awesome paddler with that nose cutting through the surface of the water.. so it does kinda work out for fast and steep waves anyway.

[Naeco78]

Your board shape actually looks really similar to the famous Plastic Machine.. that had so much influence on the transition era designs. Looks like they just pulled the tail in and probably modernized other things. Might be worth looking into that specific board some more.. probably lots of similarities with how they ride.

https://www.mctavish.com.au/collections/plastic-machine
"Ah the mighty Plastic Machine! A pivotal design in the evolution of the modern surfboard. In 1967 the surf world was ready to go vertical, start utilising the power, the wonder, the elation of carving up the wave face... not just straight-out trimming across the wall. The Plastic Machine and its contemporary shapes were the first to allow that. Certainly not perfectly, but the deep vee rolled fast onto its rail and the rocker drove it up the face and the first true re-entries and lip-smacks appeared. Sure, the design was a little extreme, and within six months the Rincon and Tracker shapes dominated, but the Plastic remains a true icon."

ForwardVPlasticFanstasticComp.JPG (27.02 KiB) Viewed 889 times

[oldmansurfer]

That plastic fantastic seems rather awkward. I guess it feels better than it looks. Maybe it is just that surfing has changed over time and I expect more from a surfer? That was the state of art back then. Just imagine how much easier it was to surf a plastic fantastic than a 100 pound plus piece of wood with no fin. The surfers skill level had to be so much greater back then.

[shaaaaaan2020]

That plastic fantastic seems rather awkward. I guess it feels better than it looks. Maybe it is just that surfing has changed over time and I expect more from a surfer? That was the state of art back then. Just imagine how much easier it was to surf a plastic fantastic than a 100 pound plus piece of wood with no fin. The surfers skill level had to be so much greater back then.

Yeah - it's an odd shape. Seems real jerky when he's carving it up the face of the wave. Almost like he has to place the rail into the face vs. roll into it. I can't imagine how good these guys had to be - especially when you see them on bigger waves.

[shaaaaaan2020]

Your board shape actually looks really similar to the famous Plastic Machine.. that had so much influence on the transition era designs. Looks like they just pulled the tail in and probably modernized other things. Might be worth looking into that specific board some more.. probably lots of similarities with how they ride.

https://www.mctavish.com.au/collections/plastic-machine
"Ah the mighty Plastic Machine! A pivotal design in the evolution of the modern surfboard. In 1967 the surf world was ready to go vertical, start utilising the power, the wonder, the elation of carving up the wave face... not just straight-out trimming across the wall. The Plastic Machine and its contemporary shapes were the first to allow that. Certainly not perfectly, but the deep vee rolled fast onto its rail and the rocker drove it up the face and the first true re-entries and lip-smacks appeared. Sure, the design was a little extreme, and within six months the Rincon and Tracker shapes dominated, but the Plastic remains a true icon."

Hey man - thx for sharing. So neat that you can still go out and buy one of these boards still.

I found this: https://www.surfline.com/surf-news/bottom-line/89272

Think this "EEV" might be a little closer to what this board has going on:

"Forward vees are not to be confused with a vee that starts a few feet in front of the fins and peaks under the back fin. Since the late ’60s, it’s been a common practice for shapers to “peak” the vee under the (back) fin and flatten last few inches of vee, which would lift and thin the tail. This would reduce drag and make the board looser.

In an EEV board, vee starts early in the nose entry…
…and gradually increases into the midsection, deepest under the front foot…
…and blends to zero or concave in tail."

This tracks with what you posted earlier re: the front foot... and, sounds real nice:

"Who might like the ride of a forward vee? Front-footed surfers riding a lined-up wave with some power and surface issues, like offshore winds, seem to enjoy the ride. The forward vee moves through the textured water like a butter knife. Speed banks off the front foot and nice tight gaffs off the top are almost autopilot. Cutbacks are a joy; with a well-designed EEV, when pressure is applied to the outside rail, it will bank and drive in a smooth arc back towards the energy center.

The aft portion of the board is flat or even light concave, heavily bent and thin. The geometry through the fin area puts the top skin and bottom skin close together so it flexes more readily as well. These design elements all combined makes for a board that drives exceptionally well off the front foot and has potential for tight, smooth direction changes off the back foot."

I think I'm going to focus on just taking off straight next time out. Try and pop-up further out on the board - get the front foot just past the midline, stay low and hold on... see how that goes. Get a feel for the rails - try turning in the flats with the momentum from the takeoff. Every time I tried to angle in before, it bucked me off.

Anyway - here's a few shots of it from the side - shows the contours a little better. Another thing, my neighbor pointed out - and you can see it in this pick the top of the board is really "dome-y" he suggested that was adding to some of the instability at lower speed as well - makes it real sensitive.

sk

[Naeco78]

That plastic fantastic seems rather awkward. I guess it feels better than it looks. Maybe it is just that surfing has changed over time and I expect more from a surfer? That was the state of art back then. Just imagine how much easier it was to surf a plastic fantastic than a 100 pound plus piece of wood with no fin. The surfers skill level had to be so much greater back then.

Yeah I noticed that a lot when I got back into surfing after about 20yrs away from it. Back in the 90's it took so long to learn new tricks. Now it seems like everyone rips lol. Back then, we basically just tried to mimic what we saw some professional do in the latest surf flick. There were no "how to" videos or step by step tutorials. But then I also think about the surfers 20yrs before that.. and how they mustve only learned things from seeing someone else pull it off.. and then spend the next weeks, months or even years trying to replicate something they can only see through there memories. It's really amazing that surfers like Buttons were already pulling off 360's back in the 70's. Amazing stuff.

The equipment makes a big difference too.. like you were saying. They're still rediscovering designs that were somewhat forgotten.. but are almost more relevant today, then they were back then.. like the Fish. That's one of the things I like so much about the retro boards.. revisiting designs that may have been before their time.. or maybe just missing a modern tweak to make it all come together. It's amazing that so much of that was developed for the very first time back then.. before the information age. The skill back then must've been incredible.. even though it doesn't always look that impressive in hindsight.

[Naeco78]

Hey Shaaan, thats interesting that your board has down turned rails too.. just like mine. I thought they mostly did that for the old 70's Pipeline style boards.. but that must've had something to do with the Vee bottom also. I know down-railers are typically used speed.. so I guess that must go really well with the Vee bottom contours wanting speed also. But when you combine the domed deck on top with the convex belly on the bottom, the board really starts to feel like it's logrolling down the face of a wave .

I guess the design works really well when everything's clicking.. but it definitely doesn't make surfing feel any easier.

LogRolling.jpg (44.79 KiB) Viewed 875 times

[oldmansurfer]

That plastic fantastic seems rather awkward. I guess it feels better than it looks. Maybe it is just that surfing has changed over time and I expect more from a surfer? That was the state of art back then. Just imagine how much easier it was to surf a plastic fantastic than a 100 pound plus piece of wood with no fin. The surfers skill level had to be so much greater back then.

Yeah I noticed that a lot when I got back into surfing after about 20yrs away from it. Back in the 90's it took so long to learn new tricks. Now it seems like everyone rips lol. Back then, we basically just tried to mimic what we saw some professional do in the latest surf flick. There were no "how to" videos or step by step tutorials. But then I also think about the surfers 20yrs before that.. and how they mustve only learned things from seeing someone else pull it off.. and then spend the next weeks, months or even years trying to replicate something they can only see through there memories. It's really amazing that surfers like Buttons were already pulling off 360's back in the 70's. Amazing stuff.

The equipment makes a big difference too.. like you were saying. They're still rediscovering designs that were somewhat forgotten.. but are almost more relevant today, then they were back then.. like the Fish. That's one of the things I like so much about the retro boards.. revisiting designs that may have been before their time.. or maybe just missing a modern tweak to make it all come together. It's amazing that so much of that was developed for the very first time back then.. before the information age. The skill back then must've been incredible.. even though it doesn't always look that impressive in hindsight.

The equipment is better now. The surfers are also better because they started younger. I was watching David Nuuhiwa riding a fish and he was supposed to be the master of style but I was overwhelmed by the thought that he is forcing that board to do things it wasn't well designed to do. That is sort of the feeling I get watching that pro surfer riding a plastic fantastic. How does one learn to do surf maneuvers? I guess mostly it was from watching others however I am sure there are surfers who make up their own stuff by doing something at first by accident. I find little fun things that I can do in the right situation that I haven't ever seen anyone do. Come to think of it long ago I did things that I didn't see anyone doing and I don't see anyone doing today so I imagine the boards are different today and not conducive to doing those things. I used to do a cutback and in going back down the line surf through the rooster tail kicked up by the cutback. I see all these pro surfers throw huge amounts of spray but the never go back through it. I still recall the first couple times I did it I wasn't sure where that spray was coming from till another surfer came up to me and told me what I was doing. Then it was a fun thing to do at the end of the fast part of a wave. I used to do an off the lip turn which was like a skateboarding rail grind where I popped the (single) fin out above the lip and slid along the lip until it got less steep and The fin contacted the water pushing the board back down the face or if it got steeper I pushed the nose of the board down and dropped down the face of the wave. Now I was trying to do a trick I saw Barry Kanaiaupuni do in a surfer magazine but it turns out what I was doing was a different thing. I am not sure why I don't see anyone doing this maneuver these days. I thought it was fun. My surfing hasn't progressed to where I might try that these days but I did quit surfing for 12 years so I am still trying to get back to where I was.

[shaaaaaan2020]

That plastic fantastic seems rather awkward. I guess it feels better than it looks. Maybe it is just that surfing has changed over time and I expect more from a surfer? That was the state of art back then. Just imagine how much easier it was to surf a plastic fantastic than a 100 pound plus piece of wood with no fin. The surfers skill level had to be so much greater back then.

Yeah I noticed that a lot when I got back into surfing after about 20yrs away from it. Back in the 90's it took so long to learn new tricks. Now it seems like everyone rips lol. Back then, we basically just tried to mimic what we saw some professional do in the latest surf flick. There were no "how to" videos or step by step tutorials. But then I also think about the surfers 20yrs before that.. and how they mustve only learned things from seeing someone else pull it off.. and then spend the next weeks, months or even years trying to replicate something they can only see through there memories. It's really amazing that surfers like Buttons were already pulling off 360's back in the 70's. Amazing stuff.

The equipment makes a big difference too.. like you were saying. They're still rediscovering designs that were somewhat forgotten.. but are almost more relevant today, then they were back then.. like the Fish. That's one of the things I like so much about the retro boards.. revisiting designs that may have been before their time.. or maybe just missing a modern tweak to make it all come together. It's amazing that so much of that was developed for the very first time back then.. before the information age. The skill back then must've been incredible.. even though it doesn't always look that impressive in hindsight.

Hey man - thought I'd give you an update on my progress. In short, after 2 sessions I was ready to give the board back to my cousin. Takeoffs were so squirrely - thing just felt so weird under my feet. I went to a local surf shop and got their $.02... they rec'd a bigger fin (ten inches) and to place it all the way up (closer to the midline). Originally had an 8in fin. In fact, the owner called the shaper and asked his set up - shaper rides a 9.5 in fin and rec'd a ten inch for me because of my weight (215). Anyway - what a difference. 2 more sessions and I'm making just about everything on the board. Board definetly prefers higher tide, some swell and longer peeling waves... but nabbed a few 5 footers over the weekend - taking off from the peak - felt pretty awesome. I'm sure it has to do with me getting used to the board, but what a difference a fin makes! Been working on cutbacks and topturns. Ironically, backside cutbacks are a lot more successful for me on this board (its the oppostie on my other boards) Seem to always bury a rail cutting back frontside off the top... I'll figure it out... the board makes you patient... something I've read about single fins in general... if you rush anything, it bucks you off. Anyway - thought you'd like to know

[dtc]

Board definetly prefers higher tide, some swell and longer peeling waves...

dont we all!

[oldmansurfer]

That’s interesting. I like bigger fins too but mostly because they give more drive when you turn.

[shaaaaaan2020]

That’s interesting. I like bigger fins too but mostly because they give more drive when you turn.

Honestly, I have no idea what's going on with single fins - this is the first one I've ridden that hasn't been a 9+ ft log.

Just seems like a trial and error thing: forward? back? 8 in? 10 in? But I definitely noticed the difference in the bottom turn on the bigger fin. Felt like I could really dig in and muscle it and it wouldn't slip out. Felt a lot more stable on take off, too. Thanks!

[waikikikichan]

Honestly, I have no idea what's going on with single fins

There are only handful of single fins I trust. One I recommend you get is the Greenough 4-A. If you can afford the Volan lay up, get that, but I am to poor so I do fine with the regular glass version.

atavolan_.jpg (60.64 KiB) Viewed 833 times

Funny, there's no 9.5, the closest in Volan is 9.75" which might be perfect for you.

[Naeco78]

Hey man - thought I'd give you an update on my progress. In short, after 2 sessions I was ready to give the board back to my cousin. Takeoffs were so squirrely - thing just felt so weird under my feet. I went to a local surf shop and got their $.02... they rec'd a bigger fin (ten inches) and to place it all the way up (closer to the midline). Originally had an 8in fin. In fact, the owner called the shaper and asked his set up - shaper rides a 9.5 in fin and rec'd a ten inch for me because of my weight (215). Anyway - what a difference. 2 more sessions and I'm making just about everything on the board. Board definetly prefers higher tide, some swell and longer peeling waves... but nabbed a few 5 footers over the weekend - taking off from the peak - felt pretty awesome. I'm sure it has to do with me getting used to the board, but what a difference a fin makes! Been working on cutbacks and topturns. Ironically, backside cutbacks are a lot more successful for me on this board (its the oppostie on my other boards) Seem to always bury a rail cutting back frontside off the top... I'll figure it out... the board makes you patient... something I've read about single fins in general... if you rush anything, it bucks you off. Anyway - thought you'd like to know

Hey thats awesome to hear the boards working out. That's interesting about the fin.. I wouldve never guessed it would need to be 2 and 1/2" bigger than the board. Wonder if its something to do with the Vee bottom. Anyway it's great to hear that it's working out much better now. Sounds like you're really starting to get it wired. I'm taking notes for when I can get mine back out there lol.
Have you tried walking the nose at all? Just curious because I have a theory that Vee's were better for noseriding because the tail naturally submerges on its own with that design. Or do you notice any difference with riding through the water instead of planing on top of it? That's the part that I look forward to the most with displacement hulls. Glad to hear that its going well

[shaaaaaan2020]

Honestly, I have no idea what's going on with single fins

There are only handful of single fins I trust. One I recommend you get is the Greenough 4-A. If you can afford the Volan lay up, get that, but I am to poor so I do fine with the regular glass version.

atavolan_.jpg

Funny, there's no 9.5, the closest in Volan is 9.75" which might be perfect for you.

Hey man, thanks for the rec! I'll check it out!

[shaaaaaan2020]

Hey man - thought I'd give you an update on my progress. In short, after 2 sessions I was ready to give the board back to my cousin. Takeoffs were so squirrely - thing just felt so weird under my feet. I went to a local surf shop and got their $.02... they rec'd a bigger fin (ten inches) and to place it all the way up (closer to the midline). Originally had an 8in fin. In fact, the owner called the shaper and asked his set up - shaper rides a 9.5 in fin and rec'd a ten inch for me because of my weight (215). Anyway - what a difference. 2 more sessions and I'm making just about everything on the board. Board definetly prefers higher tide, some swell and longer peeling waves... but nabbed a few 5 footers over the weekend - taking off from the peak - felt pretty awesome. I'm sure it has to do with me getting used to the board, but what a difference a fin makes! Been working on cutbacks and topturns. Ironically, backside cutbacks are a lot more successful for me on this board (its the oppostie on my other boards) Seem to always bury a rail cutting back frontside off the top... I'll figure it out... the board makes you patient... something I've read about single fins in general... if you rush anything, it bucks you off. Anyway - thought you'd like to know

Hey thats awesome to hear the boards working out. That's interesting about the fin.. I wouldve never guessed it would need to be 2 and 1/2" bigger than the board. Wonder if its something to do with the Vee bottom. Anyway it's great to hear that it's working out much better now. Sounds like you're really starting to get it wired. I'm taking notes for when I can get mine back out there lol.
Have you tried walking the nose at all? Just curious because I have a theory that Vee's were better for noseriding because the tail naturally submerges on its own with that design. Or do you notice any difference with riding through the water instead of planing on top of it? That's the part that I look forward to the most with displacement hulls. Glad to hear that its going well

Hey man - I wouldn't say dialed. But definitely surprised at how quick I got it up to speed on it after switching up the fin size + placement. I have walked the nose... sortof. Wasn't trying to hang five or anything... more inching up to keep speed and extend rides. Its a speed thing with this board, once it's moving it works great - responsive without being too touchy, stable...

I think the most interesting thing, and I really noticed this the last time I had it out - had my best rides on it... is it likes a later takeoff. I'm more or less catching the wave in the same spot I would on my 6'2"... Compared to my 7'8 - which likes getting in early, obviously.

I think it's because of the hull: the speed and steepness of a later takeoff sinks the tail, brings the nose up and I pop up pretty effortlessly - weight forward and in a great spot in the wave. As opposed to a more conventional board bottom - if you're taking off late, you're getting your feet up and weight back super fast to engage the fins because the board is skating down the face... I think once I figured that out, it really opened up.

I think what I notice most is how good it feels - you never bump or bounce on this thing... it just glides - cuts through chop. Sounds really nice, too. There's no rushed, rail-grabby late pop ups. Any time I rush anything, it seems, it bucks me off - haha.

I watched this and that convinced me to try the bigger fin - this is the shaper talking about it - good until about 8 min in.

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CI9h0ivj6C ... r7uf85lul7

He explains the bigger fin - but basically, it makes it so you can surf from the center of the board. Which is an interesting new challenge on the thing. Top turns and cutbacks without that step back on the fins - just using your hips and center of gravity. Anyway - hope all this geeky excitement of mine is somehow useful to you. Keep me posted on how it goes with yours. Oh, yeah - and I bought it off of my cousin after all. cheers!

[Naeco78]

I think the most interesting thing, and I really noticed this the last time I had it out - had my best rides on it... is it likes a later takeoff. I'm more or less catching the wave in the same spot I would on my 6'2"... Compared to my 7'8 - which likes getting in early, obviously.

I think it's because of the hull: the speed and steepness of a later takeoff sinks the tail, brings the nose up and I pop up pretty effortlessly - weight forward and in a great spot in the wave. As opposed to a more conventional board bottom - if you're taking off late, you're getting your feet up and weight back super fast to engage the fins because the board is skating down the face... I think once I figured that out, it really opened up.

I think what I notice most is how good it feels - you never bump or bounce on this thing... it just glides - cuts through chop. Sounds really nice, too. There's no rushed, rail-grabby late pop ups. Any time I rush anything, it seems, it bucks me off - haha.

Thats really interesting about the difference with takeoffs. That pairs up really well with single fins being so good for hunting tubes also. It sounds like a nice change from the wide tail epoxy's that give me trouble with those types of conditions. I hadn't really thought about that aspect of the displacement hulls.. That might be something that really helps me out as I get more familiar with the board.

Thanks for the Vid also.. that was cool to see how the single fin is measured out against the tail. It cleared up some questions I had about that method. I wish I could try that board at the Ranch too haha it looked perfect for the wave tank

If you haven't seen Morning of the Earth yet.. its a good Single fin surf flick from back in the day. Good stuff.

[shaaaaaan2020]

I think the most interesting thing, and I really noticed this the last time I had it out - had my best rides on it... is it likes a later takeoff. I'm more or less catching the wave in the same spot I would on my 6'2"... Compared to my 7'8 - which likes getting in early, obviously.

I think it's because of the hull: the speed and steepness of a later takeoff sinks the tail, brings the nose up and I pop up pretty effortlessly - weight forward and in a great spot in the wave. As opposed to a more conventional board bottom - if you're taking off late, you're getting your feet up and weight back super fast to engage the fins because the board is skating down the face... I think once I figured that out, it really opened up.

I think what I notice most is how good it feels - you never bump or bounce on this thing... it just glides - cuts through chop. Sounds really nice, too. There's no rushed, rail-grabby late pop ups. Any time I rush anything, it seems, it bucks me off - haha.

Thats really interesting about the difference with takeoffs. That pairs up really well with single fins being so good for hunting tubes also. It sounds like a nice change from the wide tail epoxy's that give me trouble with those types of conditions. I hadn't really thought about that aspect of the displacement hulls.. That might be something that really helps me out as I get more familiar with the board.

Thanks for the Vid also.. that was cool to see how the single fin is measured out against the tail. It cleared up some questions I had about that method. I wish I could try that board at the Ranch too haha it looked perfect for the wave tank

If you haven't seen Morning of the Earth yet.. its a good Single fin surf flick from back in the day. Good stuff.

Oh thx man - I'll check it out for sure.

Here's a shot with the bigger fin. Looks so funky - almost like a boat keel haha

Happy riding - thx again for all your input and advice.

sk