What does "don't out-paddle" mean?

[ConcreteVitamin]

I *imagine* it means that when paddling out, sit at the most "inside" in the lineup. Wait until all the people more outside than you to take their waves (outside = priority).

Is this true? Any exceptions to this etiquette? For instance, Surf Simply has a good tutorial named "paddling to spot X", which is essentially saying don't wait in the lineup, try actively hunting down the wave -- how does this advice reconcile with the aforementioned etiquette?

[waikikikichan]

Is this true? Any exceptions to this etiquette? For instance, Surf Simply has a good tutorial named "paddling to spot X", which is essentially saying don't wait in the lineup, try actively hunting down the wave

Question:
1) How much of a "local" are you at your particular surf break ?
2) What is your percentage of missed/biffed take offs.
3) Are you a longboarder in a shortboard area. ( or vice-versa ) ?

[ConcreteVitamin]

Is this true? Any exceptions to this etiquette? For instance, Surf Simply has a good tutorial named "paddling to spot X", which is essentially saying don't wait in the lineup, try actively hunting down the wave

Question:
1) How much of a "local" are you at your particular surf break ?
2) What is your percentage of missed/biffed take offs.
3) Are you a longboarder in a shortboard area. ( or vice-versa ) ?

Great questions, I imagine these are all relevant factors.

For the intermediate & up spot I have in mind:
1) Not at all.
2) 50%.
3) Yes, wavestorm-er in a shortboard-dominant area. (Although the "second" peak has more beginners.)

(This is a spot that I found very unfriendly. One time, I attempted a takeoff and failed, so I'm stuck in the impact zone. Next wave in the set broke and a guy was on it, but he didn't make past the first section, and the whitewater he was one was coming toward me. He had to abort to not run over me. Some rude yelling ensued. I think it's partly my fault -- a better thing to do might be to paddle parallel to the shore, not directly out -- but it's also partly his since he didn't make it past the section.)

For the beginner beach break spot I have in mind (actually there are so many beginners here that etiquette is not followed)
1) No, but I do come here maybe around once a week.
2) 70%.
3) Most are longboarders here.

[surferbee]

I've never heard that term other than in the context of one surfer out paddling (or paddling harder than) another to get a wave. What's the context in which you came across it?

"Inside" and "outside" can mean different things depending on context - think X and Y axis. For example, "outside" can mean the furthest out from the beach on a Y-axis. Or the furthest from the peak on an X-axis. Usually, "inside" or closest to the peak has priority, although at better breaks good surfers will sometimes backdoor the peak and drop in deeper. Sometimes backdooring a wave is bad etiquette (i.e., someone is already up and riding). You should ALWAYS look and see if someone is dropping in deeper than you (inside of you) and give them right of way.

If you're at a shortboard break with a Wavestorm, you should be mindful of the fact that you will likely be able to get into waves earlier (catching them outside) before a shortboarder (sitting inside) can catch the same waves. The shortboarders don't have any more right to the waves than you do, but if you catch one and then paddle back outside to the peak and paddle for more waves before other surfers (especially locals) have gotten waves, then you'll make some enemies. This is probably the thing I HATE most when I'm surfing. Plus, if you're on a Wavestorm at a shortboard break, people are probably already giving you the stinkeye just for paddling out. So, be respectful of the lineup and pay attention to priority.

[RinkyDink]

One time, I attempted a takeoff and failed, so I'm stuck in the impact zone. Next wave in the set broke and a guy was on it, but he didn't make past the first section, and the whitewater he was one was coming toward me. He had to abort to not run over me.

This is a common occurrence when you surf inside. Okay, so you're in the impact zone with your board and 4 more waves of the set are coming through. Each one is likely going to have a surfer(s) on it. How do you stay out of the way of all those surfers? When I first encountered these situations, I would kook it up, just like you did, and get in people's way. In fact, I would get in people's way trying to get out their way Unfortunately, there aren't many surfing-in-crowds videos (I really believe there are a lot skills involved with surfing in crowds) to help you out.

Here's what would happen to me. I'd blow my wave, surface and grab my board, turn around to face the approaching wave, and then see a surfer (more often a SUP rider) coming right at me. This happened so often that I started to anticipate the choice I would need to make: Go straight up and over the wave before the surfer reached me, paddle parallel to the wave left, paddle parallel to the wave right, or hold my position and let the surfer whiz by me. Regardless of what choice I made, I'd still screw it up at times, have to apologize, and generally deal with the fallout from kooking things up. I still make those choices, but there is an almost foolproof choice that I didn't really appreciate. That choice is to paddle back toward the shore, parallel to the approaching waves of course (never turn your back on the ocean, especially approaching set waves) or a diagonal that allows you to keep an eye on the wave and the approaching surfer. In my experience, I have never gotten in the way of another surfer when I paddle toward shore in a direction to get around the approaching surfer (right or left whatever works best). If you're paddling toward shore, you're putting more distance between you and the approaching surfer. I know as a surfer going down the line that I much prefer people moving in the direction of the shore than in a direction toward the wave I'm on. I'm sure it isn't actually "foolproof", but it goes a long way toward getting out of people's way and the little detour back toward shore isn't much of an inconvenience. The difficult part of going backwards is that it runs counter to our expectations--we're inclined to paddle back out; it's our default--but sometimes taking the detour backwards is the way to go.

[BoMan]

there aren't many surfing-in-crowds videos (I really believe there are a lot skills involved with surfing in crowds) to help you out.

This is an excellent topic!

Start with thinking ahead. Anticipate what's likely to happen with each course of action and have a plan. It all begins with studying the people from shore. Identify the aggressive locals, people riding without leashes and beginning surfers. Make note of SUPs, kayaks, body boards, foils, and body surfers. Observe what everyone is doing that will affect you. Notice anything unusual about how they paddle out, jockey the line-up, take off, and ride. Look for a spot or alternate peak where you can have the most fun.

[RinkyDink]

The difficult part of going backwards is that it runs counter to our expectations--we're inclined to paddle back out; it's our default--but sometimes taking the detour backwards is the way to go.

To be honest, moving in the direction of the shore in a diagonal or parallel direction that allows me to maintain eye contact with the wave is my preferred way for dealing with traffic these days, but it took me a while to find that technique.

[oldmansurfer]

There are ways to avoid being in the way of others. Now I am not the best at this because I don't surf with others too much but if the surfer is coming toward you it's all judgement of where they are going to be but one place they aren't going to be is where the wave has already broken so if you paddle deeper into the lineup and take the wave on the head that will usually get you out of the way especially if you are lined up inside of the break. I almost never lineup inside however and generally like to be on the biggest wave of the day but once in a while I am paddling back out and find a nice looking wave.

[dtc]

Yes, as old man says, if you are in the way then your job is to paddle toward the broken part of the wave and take the white water on the head. Or as rinky says, I guess you can paddle toward the broken part and then turn and let it take you towards the shore.

But whichever, don’t paddle toward the open face unless you are confident you can paddle up and over the wave well before the surfer arrives

Sometimes you are just in the wrong place and not much you can do; but here the key is to make it clear what you are doing. Stay still, or paddle. But don’t stop, then paddle, then change your mind or change direction.

[waikikikichan]

2) What is your percentage of missed/biffed take offs.

For the intermediate & up spot I have in mind:
2) 50%.

So you basically miss or biff your take off on 1 out of every two waves you try for. And you're thinking of doing a "out-paddle" or "go to point X" to establish priority on the take off ? When you paddle out, everyone is watching you. ( especially a longboarder at a shortboard spot and doubly especially on a sponge ). If they notice you're missing half your waves, they're going to go on you since it's 50/50 chance you're going to "waste" the wave anyways. If you paddle out to any break in Hawaii ( and you're whiter than your board ) and you biff your first wave, you might as well paddle in, since you ain't going catch nothing else there after.
Get in line, pay your dues. If you think you have the guts to "out-paddle" the locals at their own spot, you better be able to back it up with some real skills. That also true of any sport. Like they say in Basketball, " You got game ? "

[RinkyDink]

Or as rinky says, I guess you can paddle toward the broken part and then turn and let it take you towards the shore.

Just to be clear, I'm not advocating heading all the way back into shore. I'm recommending paddling around the surfer approaching you by paddling, even sprint paddling, in the direction of the shore until that surfer you're potentially in the way of goes by. Where I surf when there are sets coming in, it's pointless for me to paddle back out because A) I won't get outside in time to get a shot at another one of those set waves (there's a crowd already out there taking waves) B) If I get out of the way of the surfer on the set wave behind me, then I'll probably have to get out of the way of the surfer following that wave and so on and so on and so on . . . better to just sit inside, out of the way, and wait for a lull than to paddle back out. Just my two cents.

[ConcreteVitamin]

Champs, thanks for all the great tips!

I might have derailed the thread by posting the embarrassing anecdote. Now back to my original question...:

So when you're paddling into the lineup -- be it just getting into the water, or after a wave -- where do you sit? Do you follow a first-in first-out order, where you sit at the outside-most, wait until all the uncles/aunties in the inside to take off, then take your wave?

[oldmansurfer]

Where I like to surf there are often three lineups the inside is the shortboarders then the longboarders outside of that then the SUP guys outside of that. I have a funboard and often lineup somewhere between the SUP guys and the shortboarders. It depends on the day and how the waves are breaking. That is the middle of the bay and most of the time I am by myself between the SUP guys and the longboarders if anyone else is out. Some days there are just shortboarders all in a group in the area where the current doesn't sweep so hard and I am outside of them maybe 30 or 40 yards. In those cases I sometimes cutout before I get to the shortboarders or if I ride through then I just paddle right back out around them all. Then at middle Horners I sometimes surf with a few other surfers and we all lineup in the same place because that wave has a short window or takeoff area regardless of the board. Then when it is really good and I can't find a break with no one out I may go to outside Horners and I often paddle past the crowd of surfers at the "bowl break" and go to the next one or the one over from there. It's a bay so usually I try to find a break with no one out and most often I can but sometimes if there are only a few people at one peak I may go and sit my turn over there. So when I paddle past everyone I usually wait for everyone to catch some waves and to see what the waves are doing and work at lining up the peak I want. When I paddle back out I do the same thing and wait a while for everyone to catch some waves but mostly I try to find a break where I don't have to wait much. I know many of the surfers who are surfing there so not too much aggressive jerks except for rarely the SUP guys.

[waikikikichan]

I might have derailed the thread by posting the embarrassing anecdote. Now back to my original question...:

So when you're paddling into the lineup -- be it just getting into the water, or after a wave -- where do you sit? Do you follow a first-in first-out order, where you sit at the outside-most, wait until all the uncles/aunties in the inside to take off, then take your wave?

The responses are totally relevant to your original question... not a derailment. If by chance everyone at the particular break is the exact same level, on the exact same board, exact same physical fitness, and the exact same Moral Compass as you, then maybe you can follow this etiquette rule. But real life don't work that way. There's wave hogs, kooks, guy's who have to catch the next wave in to get to work on time, Local Heavy's ( or usually their underlings ) that want to show you who's the boss.
Even if you do everything right and play by the "rules", what if someone doesn't ? You're going to tell that person the rules while sitting on a spongeboard ? If you give the auntys and uncles their wave and there's only a 3 wave set, then what ? What if they paddle back from the first wave and set up at the peak ready for the 3rd wave ?
I do understand where you are coming from ( and it is frustrating sometimes ) but honestly like I said, You have to pay your dues, you have to put in your time at that break to earn respect. Just be patient, the time will come when one of the locals tells you, " hey dude, catch this one, it's a good one."

[surferbee]

Different lineups have different dynamics. Some are practically free-for-alls while others are heavily regulated. Based on your previous post about surfing the Hook, I'm gonna assume you're talking about surfing Santa Cruz or maybe further north. Either way, here are a few things to consider, most of which will apply at other lineups as well.

1. --Don't paddle out straight to the peak and go for the first wave that comes.--
Sit further off to the side and get a feel for the dynamic in the water. Watch who's catching waves and who isn't. Let at least one set roll through. If you're lucky, it will be a big set that the best surfers will nab and the rest will get cleaned up leaving you sitting pretty. But don't count on that. More likely, a few surfers will catch the set waves and other surfers will shift over to get in position. You should basically get in line and wait your turn. If you're really lucky a set will swing wide and you'll be in position to jump the queue by no fault of your own. On a good day at Steamer Lane, it might be 30 minutes before I paddle for my first wave. Pleasure Point is usually mellower. Cowell's is pretty much a free-for-all.

2. --Don't snake anyone.--
Snaking is paddling around someone to get better position to drop in on a wave. If you've watched someone let a few waves go by and it looks like they're mostly sightseeing, then yeah, of course it's fine to change your position in the lineup. But if someone's been waiting, and they're in position, and you paddle around them on your sponge to get in the wave earlier, then a few dozen surfers are gonna tell the cops that they didn't see a damn thing as they rush you off to the ER.

3. --Don't drop in on anyone.--
If someone's on the wave, it's theirs. Back off. If someone's deeper than you and they're paddling (and they know what they're doing), it's theirs. Back off. Especially at better, more competitive breaks, this can be frustrating because good surfers will be able to get in deeper and in more critical spots. Just be patient and enjoy the show.

4. --Don't under paddle anyone.--
This is basically paddling in front of someone, or across their line of entry, to catch a wave. Paddling next to someone who may or may not make the wave is fine, but if they have to slow their paddle because you're shunting them, then don't be surprised if your leash *accidentally* gets pulled right as you're trying to make that critical drop. Also, don't be surprised if your Wavestorm *accidentally* becomes two body boards.

People complain about getting vibed at SC by locals, but I'm not local and I've never been harassed because I follow those four rules. It also helps that there are a lot of talented surfers in SC. Why does that help? Because the really good surfers usually have no problem dropping in deeper, navigating the lineup, and adjusting to the conditions. I once shared a peak with Nat Young and he took every wave he wanted. Even if I had wanted to challenge him, there's no way I could have because (as waikikikichan put it) he's got mad game. He was always deeper, more critical, and he got there without having to mess with me to do it. And yeah, I was on a funboard at the time. He was on a shortboard with probably half as much volume. My point is, a good surfer will often be able to compensate for your kookiness BUT being aware and respectful of those around you will help keep you out of trouble.

[Tudeo]

When I paddle out I like to start outside and wide of the peak so I can rest a bit and show my respect to the guys on the peak.
Then I let go of the first set and paddle to the, then, empty peak position and keep that position when the others return.
Also I always choose the initial outside/wide position where the rare biggest waves break. When I'm lucky and that wave comes, I'm the only one in position for catching it.

[Big H]

At my local spots I go right to the peak....say hellos to everyone I know....at places full of transient surfers I paddle out inside the peak but further out back, a little too far to either get caught inside or to catch a wave. I sit there for the next set and see what the lineup does, who's who and just out of respect for not coming in and just jumping up the ladder. Set passes and I go take my place and depending on the lineup and how it is behaving, either battle for position and go for waves straight away or I wait my turn if turns are being taken and enough waves to go around.

If a newb came and tried to back paddle me, sit inside and steal waves I'd probably just drop in on them and pass them or I'd pull up next to them to touching distance if they dropped in on me.

[ConcreteVitamin]

Different lineups have different dynamics. Some are practically free-for-alls while others are heavily regulated. Based on your previous post about surfing the Hook, I'm gonna assume you're talking about surfing Santa Cruz or maybe further north. Either way, here are a few things to consider, most of which will apply at other lineups as well.

Yeah the spot X is indeed the Hook thanks for the great tips.