Surfing Waves

What would you say the angle the board makes with the shoreline is on an average steady ride on an average wave.
I have been looking at videos from drones trying to estimate it and it seems about 45 degrees.

I would depend on the wave right? How it breaks, how fast or slow it breaks, how it sections, the angle the wave is coming into the break at, the topography of the shore (point break for instance with rocky outcroppings). Many waves turn as they break or otherwise aren't straight across....one wave I ride the drop is on one angle and then you go around a "corner" and the wave on the bit after the bottom turn is breaking slower and I feels a little like you are riding back into the wave.

It depends on the wave and how fast it is and what angle to the shore it is and what you are doing. I would say that on my average wave the board is most often closer to parallel to the shore but can change rapidly from parallel to perpendicular and back again and once in a while facing the other direction 180 degrees and parallel to the shore as well as 180 from perpendicular and back again.

Big H wrote:I would depend on the wave right? How it breaks, how fast or slow it breaks, how it sections, the angle the wave is coming into the break at, the topography of the shore.

Donald Trump would say "Wave angles...who knew they were so complicated."

here's a pretty mellow constant wave

If you were to average the turns, would it be about 45?

Easy answer to the average angle to shore :
1) what is the average wave ?
2) what is the average wind direction ?
3) what is the average swell direction ?
4) what is the average reef break shape ?
5) what is the constant shape of the sand at a beach break ?
6) where does the reform and back wash always happen ?
7) How many waves combine together always ?

Surfing happens in Nature. Nature is ever changing. It does not have rigid numbers like in man-made forms. Nature doesn't need you to take a protractor out and measure the degrees. Angles change from take off, to bottom turn, to trim, to cutback. You need to work with the changing angles and degrees of the wave, constantly. My advise is to "LISTEN" to the wave, there is a beat to it's music. If you stick to rigid moves and steps drawn out on the floor( and numbers of degrees ) you won't be as flowing as someone who dances with the wave.

speed of the wave is very important - check out around 0.55 of this video at teahupoo. Notice how he is going almost straight down/straight towards the shore yet is actually going too slowly and is being forced back up the face of the wave (ie notwithstanding going straight down, the wave is moving water up the face faster than he is going down)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7woVTuN8k3c

So in general the speed component of the board going omshore has to match the speed of the wave, right? And you can figure out the angle from there?

Then you have to figure out which angle x,y or z axis?

pmcaero wrote: And you can figure out the angle from there?

Then you have to factor in :
1) The static rocker built/designed into the board,
2) The Kinetic flexing of the material of the board ( and fin )
3) The actual length of the board vs. stepping back and "making the board shorter" to fit by stepping back to the tail
4) Where you are at that very moment on the board. Up front to make the board plane for speed or on the tail to turn.
5) The points of pressure and bends in your body eg; Stiff locked out legs vs. supple knees to absorb and resist , bobbing and bouncing vs. pushing the board into the wave. Angle of the body line vs, leaning and bracing.

Every wave is different, 10 waves you catch on the same day will all offer different circumstances. Be proactive not re-active. Once you see the lip is throwing over or the wave is closing out, it's too late. Learn to see what leading up to those situations BEFORE they happen and take appropriate actions.

Also gravity!

dtc wrote:Also gravity!

Gravity sucks
Note to PM stop trying to do the maths and computing surfing just go out and let go of all the head stuff and just surf.
Factor fun in the sun more than anything else.

jaffa1949 wrote:Note to PM stop trying to do the maths and computing surfing just go out and let go of all the head stuff and just surf.
Factor fun in the sun more than anything else.

Reminds me of the conundrum that any 5 years old can calculate in their head the complex maths of trajectory and speed and force and gravity and catch a ball

But ask them to put that understanding down on paper and its going to be 'um, I just put my hands where the ball is'.

Surfing is a bit like that. Just put yourself where the wave is. See what happens. If you drop the ball (stuff up the wave), put yourself somewhere slightly different!

jaffa1949 wrote:

dtc wrote:Also gravity!

Gravity sucks
Note to PM stop trying to do the maths and computing surfing just go out and let go of all the head stuff and just surf.
Factor fun in the sun more than anything else.

Can we just do this as an intellectual exercise? I'd like to understand better how a board rides a wave by using the energy of the wave. let's just say the surfer is a kook who sets the rail and just rides it without any attempts to change direction.

You are trying to oversimplify it. Waves are three dimensional and you are trying to devolve it into a two dimensional model. Also you are trying to limit somehow the wave to a crumbly wave that breaks slowly and the surfer to someone who can't or doesn't turn the board and just trims along the wave. Also you have to imagine a wave that is parallel to the beach and probably instead your point of reference to measure the angle should be from the wave itself ignoring the beach but then choosing a plane in the three dimensional wave to chose to measure the angle from probably a plane that extends from the top of the wave to perpendicular to a imaginary flat bottom. But waves are curved so you have to imagine the wave is perfectly straight. Then you can measure the angle from a horizontal plane from where it intersects with the vertical plane of the wave. If you are limiting one direction then it will be within a 90 degree range where if the wave was infinitely fast the board would be at 0 degrees and if it was infinitely slow it would be at a maximum of 90 degrees. Then an average theoretical wave would be 45 degrees by definition. but what you want is to understand reality? I am not sure what you were hoping to learn from this.

pmcaero wrote:

jaffa1949 wrote:

dtc wrote:Also gravity!

Gravity sucks
Note to PM stop trying to do the maths and computing surfing just go out and let go of all the head stuff and just surf.
Factor fun in the sun more than anything else.

Can we just do this as an intellectual exercise? I'd like to understand better how a board rides a wave by using the energy of the wave. let's just say the surfer is a kook who sets the rail and just rides it without any attempts to change direction.

Absolutely ,there was a very nice article about surf in a National Geographic Magazinea while back.

Just an aside I have ridden several wave that refract almost 360 degrees around coral cays, There are waves that react to diffraction through holes in reefs there are waves through bathymetrics force themselves many kilometers upstream as a rideable wave.

The offshore bathymetrics contribute a huge amount to wave averageness at any spot, offshore canyon acting as a lens to focus wave energy .
A simple comparison of two average bathymetrics, the long lead in sand a delta structure ( the Rhine) beaches of Holland old Alps fluvial sediments and a short fetch delivering mush and white water waves compared to Hawaiian lack of continental shelf and amazingly long fetch delivering waves of immense power. ( side note here; pipeline you ride next to and parallel to the beach)
For New England try this link; www.internalwaveatlas.com see what you think, then consider the geomorphology of the post glacial sediments off shore and the factors of isostatic rebound after the last ice age.

One particular set of waves that was mitigated be structural means was the Seine mascaret and, its history explains why the French Navy do not eat rabbit on board ship.

pmcaero wrote:Can we just do this as an intellectual exercise? I'd like to understand better how a board rides a wave by using the energy of the wave.

If you want to utilize the wave's energy more, than your question should be "average angle of board to the wave" not to the shore. By using the waves energy ( the water flowing up and over) , you FALL up the wave by releasing and drop down by resisting. Also WHERE matters, close to the curling lip of the wave has the most power, but too close and you get flipped over.

pmcaero wrote:let's just say the surfer is a kook who sets the rail and just rides it without any attempts to change direction.

I've seen people who've been surfing for 10 years not get the same fully 'locked-in" trimming down the line , peak all the way to the end ride as a Newbie on a lesson who I pushed into a wave. They didn't do anything, they just got to their feet, looked at the far away landmark I told them to look for, stood an inch less than their height and just glided along start to finish. So yes, it's possible for a Kook to get "lucky" and get slotted.
For your case, you're trying to pump, bounce, swing the arms, tap, change the arrow, etc. I know I've told you , a long time ago, to just pop up and then do nothing. Just tune into the wave. So now, since you want to learn to use the wave's energy ( and not yours ) more, try this: RACE CAR.
Do a half pop and get into the seated position, like sitting in a kayak. Lean your body/shoulder into the wave, drag your back arm in the waves face, grab rail and lift with your outside hand to set and go up the wave. Push the rail down to release and turn down the wave, do what ever as your gaze is always one step ahead. See how far you can go. This will teach you to be in tune with the wave.

waikikikichan wrote: RACE CAR.
Do a half pop and get into the seated position, like sitting in a kayak. Lean your body/shoulder into the wave, drag your back arm in the waves face, grab rail and lift with your outside hand to set and go up the wave. Push the rail down to release and turn down the wave, do what ever as your gaze is always one step ahead. See how far you can go. This will teach you to be in tune with the wave.

I actually do that sometime on the backside. It's fun and relaxing and the board is very responsive.

so what I am trying to figure out is , indeed, a simplified model of surfing. Nothing related to my own surfing though.
For instance, to simplify even further, if you were to plot the course of a surfer, again, a kook just setting the rail. I'm interested in the sideshore versus offshore components of displacement.Does it depend on how the wave breaks? Are there waves where your path is almost parallel to the beach? Are there waves where even a pro has to go nearly straight to shore to stay in the pocket?

pmcaero wrote:

waikikikichan wrote: RACE CAR.
Do a half pop and get into the seated position, like sitting in a kayak. Lean your body/shoulder into the wave, drag your back arm in the waves face, grab rail and lift with your outside hand to set and go up the wave. Push the rail down to release and turn down the wave, do what ever as your gaze is always one step ahead. See how far you can go. This will teach you to be in tune with the wave.

I actually do that sometime on the backside. It's fun and relaxing and the board is very responsive.

Ah.....no. Race car is done sitting down. Like on your butt. Lean your torso forward to make sections and lean back ( almost laying down ) to bring the nose up.