Volume is a myth?

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Volume is a myth?

Postby Oldie » Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:12 pm

Hi all,

I recently stumbled on this interview. While I understand that volume is only one of many elements, I was surprised by the statement from Bob McTavish that the importance of volume is a myth:



And I recently have read similar things here, that volume does not matter, while size does.

I have experienced myself that a bigger, flatter board is easier to ride than a smaller, thicker board of the same volume. However, given the same shape and size, will not anyway volume make a big difference in terms of flotation and thus paddling help?
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Re: Volume is a myth?

Postby jaffa1949 » Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:49 pm

Volume has really been a factor in board thinking since CAD was introduced as a numerical component in machine shaping.
Before computer design, shaper thought it through.
Wetted length was important , the bottom length of the board ,minus nose and tail rocker, volume was consider only as width and thickness .

Try and calculate the volume manually without a formula, my head cannot do it.

Shaping by hand ( McTavish is an ancient master) is balancing trade off with benefits of each element against the surfers skills.
Volume is often used as a fashion marketing ploy along with the appropriate Pro ripping the top off a wave .

The rest of us have find a board that enable us to maintain and then enhance our surfing skills.

Proof volume isn't the issue....... guys riding skim boards on huge waves almost no volume but max skills.
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Re: Volume is a myth?

Postby oldmansurfer » Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:18 pm

He was only saying that volume above what keeps the top of the board level with the water is useless. There are other factors that help paddling like rocker. However if this was really true then where are the longboards that are thin and duck diveable? I don't recall seeing longboards that don't stick up above the surface of the water. When I restarted surfing I originally used a thin 9'6" big wave gun. It did not float above the surface of the water and it paddled well and caught waves well. I switched to a 9'6" longboard that did float and it took me a while to figure out that it caught waves better. For one thing it had better glide so that if I paddled once I stopped the longboard would continue on further than the gun. Now this could be from other factors such as rocker but it seemed to make sense that the gun will sink back into the water after you quit paddling and longboard not so much. The other part of this is volume verses weight so if you take 2 identical blanks (same volume) and one you glass with 1 layer of 4 ounce glass and the other with 4 layers of 6 ounce glass, 2 things will be easily noticeable, one is the 4 ounce board will ride higher in the water while paddling and the other is that the 6 ounce board will be much more durable. I think perhaps displacement of water while paddling or surfing is more meaningful than just volume. But if volume is completely meaningless (and I don't think that is what he was saying) then where are the zero volume longboards?
So what is worse.... dying or regretting it for the rest of my life? Obviously I chose not regretting it.
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Re: Volume is a myth?

Postby dtc » Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:50 pm

I think volume is just a 'check sum' - its a function of L x W x T, so if you have those right then the volume will be right; its just a shorthand way of knowing that one 2 3/4 thick board might have less volume than another 2 3/4 thick board because the thickness goes all the way out to the rails for one and not the other. Perfectly obvious if you see the board in the flesh but perhaps not online

But two 40L board can surf very differently; once rocker and rails and nose and tail etc are taken into account

And there are times when volume is irrelevant - for example, if you take the view that a beginner should have (say) 0.8 - 1L volume for each kg of the surfers weight, my beginner board should be 64L - 80L. But a 45kg female would be 36L - 45L, and think a 6'8 hybrid is suitable just based on volume. Except that volume here is irrelevant, you want stability and ease of paddling etc and still want a funboard shape of over 7ft. That might be 55L

It does annoy me when people say 'should I surf a 40L board'? Well, who knows. Yes if its a 6ft8 board and no if its a 5ft5 board, possibly. Or the other way around.

Look at volume at about point 9 of reviewing the board (length, width, thickness, rocker, nose, tail, rails, fin system - then check volume to make sure its all fitting together). Just like knowing the width of a board tells you something but not much, knowing the volume tells you something but not much. Very useful in the context of all the other factors, completely pointless on its own
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Re: Volume is a myth?

Postby benjl » Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:20 am

Good post and answers!
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Re: Volume is a myth?

Postby Oldie » Tue Mar 28, 2017 8:55 am

Thanks all, interesting feedback!
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Re: Volume is a myth?

Postby dtc » Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:07 am

Here is another volume conundrum: why are all surf board measurements, fin measurements, wave measurements and leggie measurements in feet or inches (imperial scale) but volume is in litres (metric scale)?
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Re: Volume is a myth?

Postby billie_morini » Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:45 pm

When I hear the term, "volume," I think, "Turn it up to eleven."
Could be the guitar player in me.
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Re: Volume is a myth?

Postby benjl » Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:56 pm

I just like how volume is quoted in litres of beer at my local surf shop hahaha

My custom 5'9 is 82 beers
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Re: Volume is a myth?

Postby Oldie » Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:39 pm

benjl wrote:I just like how volume is quoted in litres of beer at my local surf shop hahaha

My custom 5'9 is 82 beers


That is a feature ;-)

Beersinvolume.JPG
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Re: Volume is a myth?

Postby RinkyDink » Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:09 am

dtc wrote:Here is another volume conundrum: why are all surf board measurements, fin measurements, wave measurements and leggie measurements in feet or inches (imperial scale) but volume is in litres (metric scale)?

Because Americans who get their panties in a bunch every time the issue of converting to the metric system comes up don't remember what volume is.
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Re: Volume is a myth?

Postby oldmansurfer » Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:42 am

metric is so difficult to understand for us Americans but increasing volume by 5 liters is like a good nights drinking and by 10 liters is like getting blitzed. That we can understand ..... just kidding metric is so easy but it is perhaps just the thought of retooling everything and having to purchase all new measuring devices that makes Americans hesitate.
So what is worse.... dying or regretting it for the rest of my life? Obviously I chose not regretting it.
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Re: Volume is a myth?

Postby RinkyDink » Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:47 am

oldmansurfer wrote:metric is so difficult to understand for us Americans but increasing volume by 5 liters is like a good nights drinking and by 10 liters is like getting blitzed. That we can understand ..... just kidding metric is so easy but it is perhaps just the thought of retooling everything and having to purchase all new measuring devices that makes Americans hesitate.

I'm all for metric conversion, but the pint glass should never die. Beer was meant to be consumed in pint increments.
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Re: Volume is a myth?

Postby benjl » Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:38 am

Hey oldie

Interesting your Aku shaper compared to mine. Really flat nose but heaps of tail rocker where mine is the opposite.
Also a lot of single concave and vee in your design.!

One thing I've never noticed on the Aku shaper is the red crosses on the rails- I've only ever seen them at the bottom of the rail from my shaper but yours are mid rail? Anyone know what that means?
50/50 rails vs down-turned rails on my board maybe?
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Re: Volume is a myth?

Postby dtc » Tue Apr 04, 2017 7:10 am

RinkyDink wrote:I'm all for metric conversion, but the pint glass should never die. Beer was meant to be consumed in pint increments.


Even in Australia, which is fully metric (outside surfing and some fishing gear), we still have beers that have their volume as equivalent to pints, half pints (middy/pots) and 3/4 pints (schooners). Although in Adelaide a 'pint' is 3/4 of a pint and an 'imperial pint' is a pint. But Adelaide is deep south :D
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Re: Volume is a myth?

Postby Oldie » Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:38 am

benjl wrote:Hey oldie

Interesting your Aku shaper compared to mine. Really flat nose but heaps of tail rocker where mine is the opposite.
Also a lot of single concave and vee in your design.!

One thing I've never noticed on the Aku shaper is the red crosses on the rails- I've only ever seen them at the bottom of the rail from my shaper but yours are mid rail? Anyone know what that means?
50/50 rails vs down-turned rails on my board maybe?


Yeah, this is a suggestion from my shop for a small summer wave longboard for an old and heavy beginner like me, so different target group :-).

I understood the crosses as the edges, so looks like tucked under edges on your board all the way. And on round rails, I assume it is the wide point (looks like 50:50 in the front and 60:40 in the middle on my design).
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Re: Volume is a myth?

Postby Oldie » Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:00 pm

RinkyDink wrote:I'm all for metric conversion, but the pint glass should never die. Beer was meant to be consumed in pint increments.


Pints are for ladies ;-)

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Beer Bavarian size
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