Study the lineup?

Have a chat about any general surfing related topics.

Re: Study the lineup?

Postby Tudeo » Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:02 am

RinkyDink wrote:
BoMan wrote:When falling I have to focus on grabbing my board on the way down.

Is there a reason why you try to grab your board?

I can't speak for Boman, but I try to grab and hold my board in big surf because there's a risk the leash breaks. Especially with a big board the pull on the leash can get too strong for it to hold.

But catching and holding the board is risking impact with it so I only try that in a somewhat controlled situation. In an out of control wipeout I still try to kick the board away from my body if possible.

Still, holding on to the board is my preferred way cos losing the board when there's a lot of water moving around is very dangerous in Bali.
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Re: Study the lineup?

Postby BoMan » Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:07 pm

RinkyDink wrote:
Is there a reason why you try to grab your board?


I do this where the water is 2-3 feet deep over a rocky bottom. Some of the rocks have names like "Mr. Sir" and scare people away from my favorite spot. I should kick out before it gets shallow but often can't resist the beautiful inside faces.
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Re: Study the lineup?

Postby RinkyDink » Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:44 pm

Tudeo wrote:
RinkyDink wrote:
BoMan wrote:When falling I have to focus on grabbing my board on the way down.

Is there a reason why you try to grab your board?

I can't speak for Boman, but I try to grab and hold my board in big surf because there's a risk the leash breaks. Especially with a big board the pull on the leash can get too strong for it to hold.

But catching and holding the board is risking impact with it so I only try that in a somewhat controlled situation. In an out of control wipeout I still try to kick the board away from my body if possible.

Still, holding on to the board is my preferred way cos losing the board when there's a lot of water moving around is very dangerous in Bali.

Fair enough. Personally, I wouldn't hang onto my board or leash in big surf, but I sometimes surf alone if I can get a spot to myself so I guess we all have our own risk tolerances. When I was starting I used to grab my leash to control my board until one day the leash got wrapped around my arm and the board got pulled. That was the last time I fiddled with my leash or board in breaking surf. Anyway, I'm sure there are lots of ways to stay safe in conditions that demand different safety techniques.
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Re: Study the lineup?

Postby RinkyDink » Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:45 pm

BoMan wrote:
RinkyDink wrote:
Is there a reason why you try to grab your board?


I do this where the water is 2-3 feet deep over a rocky bottom. Some of the rocks have names like "Mr. Sir" and scare people away from my favorite spot. I should kick out before it gets shallow but often can't resist the beautiful inside faces.


Got it. That makes sense.
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Re: Study the lineup?

Postby sirkook94 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:38 am

Not too much time spent analyzing, but there are many things that I look at.

Including:
-Wind: which way are any indicators (usually palm trees or flags) blowing? How textured is the water? How is this affecting shape?
-variety of surfers in the water: who’s good and who’s not? Who can I snake :)
- what’s the tide doing? If it’s a point or a jetty, there may be some wedgies out there.
- where the channels are/ how strong is the current?

Just some things that I look for at a glance. Sometimes I just paddle out and figure this stuff out in the water (actually most of the time!).
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Re: Study the lineup?

Postby BoMan » Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:22 pm

When it's crowded, I always look for the "alternate peaks" even if they are smaller and less consistent. I like being a lone wolf... until the crowd joins me!
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Re: Study the lineup?

Postby kookRachelle » Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:05 pm

This thread is pretty helpful, actually. Such a good idea to look at the sets from the beach to see which waves are bigger and which ones are most crowded. As a general rule of thumb, especially here on the east coast, when it's crowded people are floating around waiting for a decent wave FOREVER, so all the kooks and agros go for the first one. I try to hold out for the second one, but taking a look at them before getting in the water sounds like it's way better.

To answer the question, I honestly just look at where there's a decent channel to paddle out ASAP with the least amount of effort. haha I also pay attention to the tides because that affects the quality of waves tremendously at my local spot.
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Re: Study the lineup?

Postby Tudeo » Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:08 am

Sometimes (often/always?) the setwaves break at very different positions than the smaller waves in between. You can see that very clear from the beach, if you're patient enough..

My last session was at an crowded spot at (very) low tide with a lot of current, I was surprised to see the crowd hanging around where the smaller in between waves broke. I sat alone at the position I thought was best for the Right setwave, I didn't have to wait long and had a very nice drop and bottom and a short ride before it closed out.

After my second Right, the crowd paddled to my position. So I let the current drift me to the position where I'd seen the takeoff area for the Left setwave, again far from the thick of the crowd. I didn't have to wait long, and I got a beautiful overhead Left (all setwaves were overhead). I rode it to the beach and got out, I didn't have the fitness to paddle the 250 meters out again.

It was a good day 8)
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Re: Study the lineup?

Postby dtc » Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:24 am

The ‘sit for the average wave or the set wave’ conundrum!
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Re: Study the lineup?

Postby Tudeo » Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:19 am

Tudeo wrote:It was a good day 8)

Another day, same spot, same board. Got smashed by cleanup sets.

Sometimes you're the hammer, sometimes you're the nail.. :roll:
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Re: Study the lineup?

Postby BoMan » Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:28 pm

Tudeo wrote:Sometimes (often/always?) the setwaves break at very different positions than the smaller waves in between. You can see that very clear from the beach, if you're patient enough..)


Interesting! Does this happen at a beach break where smaller waves break on the inside sandbar and the set waves fire on the outer one? Also, do the sandbars move around enough that you have to check for changes before paddling out?
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Re: Study the lineup?

Postby dtc » Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:32 am

BoMan wrote: Interesting! Does this happen at a beach break where smaller waves break on the inside sandbar and the set waves fire on the outer one? Also, do the sandbars move around enough that you have to check for changes before paddling out?


Waves tend to break at a depth equal to about 1.3 times their height. If your beach has a gently sloping sea bed, then waves will break further out directly correlated to their height ie the bigger the wave the further out it breaks

Most sea beds are not consistently sloping but will have sandbanks ie deep then the bank builds up to be shallower then goes deep again (sand banks are not not upside down U shaped, they are more pyramidal shape, so usually they have a slope leading up to their peak).

A bigger wave will break toward the outside (seaside) of the sandbank, whereas a smaller wave might not break right until the peak (shallowest part) of the sandbank. Depending on the seabed depth variations, the bigger waves might break 3m further out or 20m further out. And, of course, if there are outer sandbanks that are deeper, then bigger waves may break there and smaller waves just go straight over the top

if you have somewhere that goes deep -> suddenly shallow (like a reef or a point), then the deep part might be more than 1.3X the height of all waves, so all of the waves break right at that point. Because of the sudden depth change, the speed of the bigger waves is still pretty high so the bottom of the wave is suddenly slowed (as it hits the reef) but the top of the wave is still going very fast. Result.... barrels. But even small waves will still break at that point. Which is why point (and to a lesser extent reef) waves are easier to surf, because the take off point is almost always within a small area.

note: formula is db =1.28Hb

where
db - depth where wave break
Hb - height of breaker

as to sandbars - sandbars move slowly if at all during normal weather. Sand is pretty hard when compacted. However, storms can wash sandbars away entirely and the new sandbars will then need to form. Most of the time they will form roughly similar to where they were before (since the beach, rocks, headlands etc are usually similar and so water - carrying the sand - travels in similar patterns) but not always, and of course it will take time to rebuild grain by grain.

I suppose the summary is - day to day (excluding storms), you rarely notice much difference due to sandbar movement (i mean, tide, winds, swell direction etc etc are far more important). But if you visit every 3 months you may notice differences; if you visit after a storm it may be completely different and remain completely different

for example, a break I surfed a lot 15 years ago - a nice peeling left hander starting off a point - had the sandbar/sand over the rocks washed away in a storm and has never been the same since. In fact, it doesnt break at all now. Whereas the beach down the road, you have been able to line up with 'the blue house' on shore since forever, and its still the takeoff spot despite the many storms in the intervening years
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Re: Study the lineup?

Postby oldmansurfer » Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:23 am

Waves do weird things. There was a day where I went out and was surfing next to two shortboarders who couldn't catch the waves in the break that looked the best from the shore. The waves were about double overhead 6 foot Hawaiian and fast long running walls. I was able to catch them and the two surfers moved outside to a smaller break that they saw outside of the bigger break. There were bigger waves breaking on both sides of that spot but not there and not apparently outside of that spot they were at. I couldn't figure out why it was like that but must be some combination of swell and sand bank. The waves at that break change daily. It's never the same although maybe themes might run conditions might be the same and the break might be good or stormy for a few days in a row however where the waves are breaking good changes from day to day. Still somewhat regular in the location of the good breaks are often in the same part of the bay but you need different lineups and one day good over here and one day good over there.
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Re: Study the lineup?

Postby Tudeo » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:38 am

BoMan wrote:Interesting! Does this happen at a beach break where smaller waves break on the inside sandbar and the set waves fire on the outer one? Also, do the sandbars move around enough that you have to check for changes before paddling out?

The break I was talking about is a well known ultra crowded break called Oldmans, it's at the Batubolong beach. These waves break on lava reefs. How the waves break is dependent on many factors, like dtc above so expertly describes.
This wave is closest to my house so I know it well, but still it surprises me sometimes, like it did yesterday.

Yesterday there was a building swell when I went in, I hadn't seen the new bigger sized sets from shore, so I positioned ... in the danger zone as I learned soon after. The break is about 300 meters from shore, and I was just sitting down to recover from the paddle out, I was sitting already way outside and to the east from the thick crowd, a safe recovery zone just next a deep channel on normal days.

But I was immediately surprised by a big set I couldn't escape on my 9'2 longboard, I had to eat 7 or 8 biggies. I was never in danger or felt any panic, but it takes a lot of energy and the tumbling messes with ur equilibrium. So it was a bad start, and after that I kept screwing things up, all resulting in eating cleanup sets. In the end I had some beautiful long Lefts, but at a too high cost for my liking. :?
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Re: Study the lineup?

Postby BoMan » Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:15 pm

dtc wrote:note: formula is db =1.28Hb

where
db - depth where wave break
Hb - height of breaker


Great post...and as long as we're geeking out, I found resources for a UC San Diego course "The Physics of Surfing."

http://topex.ucsd.edu/ps/
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Re: Study the lineup?

Postby oldmansurfer » Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:35 pm

BoMan wrote:
Tudeo wrote:Sometimes (often/always?) the setwaves break at very different positions than the smaller waves in between. You can see that very clear from the beach, if you're patient enough..)


Interesting! Does this happen at a beach break where smaller waves break on the inside sandbar and the set waves fire on the outer one? Also, do the sandbars move around enough that you have to check for changes before paddling out?

I bet there is a big difference between breaks where there is a continental shelf and ones where there isn't one. Waves become more organized over a continental shelf whereas swell from the deep ocean is not and may have several swells from different directions. However it sounds like Tudeo is just describing a break that has a different bottom contour outside compared to the inside
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Re: Study the lineup?

Postby Tudeo » Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:13 am

These reefs are very uneven, you can see slabs of reef in different area's on low tides, I guess it's the same outside.
The trick is to know what will happen before it actually does, to know where the next wave will come, before the crowds go there. The locals are true masters at that.
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