Surfing Waves

Hello everyone, glad to be here and excited to make my first post searching for some advice.. so a little about myself and my skill level. I began surfing as a child through the influences of my Aunt, Uncle and brother. I spent a lot of time in the ocean on the east coast in New Jersey into my teen years prior to high school. I started out and progressed onto a short board at a young age but quickly out grew my first small board. It was then that instead of buying another board that I was placed onto my brother 6'5 JS and that was were I think my progression began to halter. The board felt like a boat to me and I could by no means turn or maneuver it at all. From what I remember I stopped surfing as often and then into my high school years got further from the ocean and stopped surfing almost all together aside from some weekends and the chance I was at the beach for a bigger swell. Flash forward to about 18-19 and I started to find the passion for surfing again. I began traveling and taking trips that were surf oriented, (cali, and Puerto Escondido) as well as surfing at home more often. Right before then I also had bought myself my very first new board. a 5'11 hybrid shape by a local shaper. I have always had confidence in my ability to stand up catch waves front and backside down the line, reading waves and where I feel I should catch them at, as well as my paddling ability and fitness. I rarely fall once I stand up and can travel down the line easily. Within the past few trips surfing I have worked on gaining speed through compression and though I still have work to do I am confident I can do it. This brings me to where I felt I have struggled the most. Since I had started surfing my brothers board at a young age to even now I have felt I lack the ability to carve, and keep the speed through any type of turn that is not trimming. My frustration has always been bogging my rails or feeling as if the board won't drive with enough speed as I would want. My knowledge in surfing has grown since I have refound my passion for it, but with all the brands out there it is so hard to figure out what may or may not work or if I'm not channeling my energy in the right way. I am 22 now and my height and weight are 6'0ft 170-175lbs. I have usually always surfed boards in the 33-35L range. My locally shaped board I believe falls at about 32-33L. But from what I have researched this is probably not at all the correct volume for my weight and is probably why my progression has gotten so slow but I don't know. All I want is the best possible board or volume that will help me progress my surfing past this stage. I now currently have lived on Oahu for the past 4 months and bought a 5'10 Hypto Krypto. I think it has definitely helped me progress with gaining speed but still have not moved past that bubble of carving and maneuvers. I do also think I put myself in pretty steep waves here on the North Shore, up to slightly over head. I am curious to see what insight everyone could give me on my situation and what might suite me best. I look at any board shapers site and the volume calculators don't seem right to me for my weight, and I also don't understand correctly the "X inches shorter then your standard shortboard" motto they put on some boards. Since it seems like that board might be a better volume for me but at a 5'10 not the 5'6 they recommend. I also think I might not know what MY standard shortboard size even is though. I think I need to give the shortboards I'm used to around my height of 6'0 a couple bumps up in inches to 6'2 6'3 possibly but thats another question I don't know. Anyways, sorry for rambling but if you guys on here could give me any insight I look forward to communicating these things going on with my surfing and board knowledge. Thank you all in advance! And happy New Year as well.

To be honest you seem to be after a board that will cure a technical weakness. But as regular poster waikikichan says, it’s the Indian not the arrow ie there isn’t a board that will make you better at carving turns.

That said, lower volume boards require a lot more input from the surfer to create speed; so while shorter boards allow easier trim turns, they can be harder for carve turns

Low 30L at your weight is probably what a very good surfer would surf (Dane Reynolds at 180lbs surfs around 29-30L).

Have a read of this

https://surfsimply.com/surf-coaching/vo ... ht-ratios/

It suggests you should be up around 35-38L; although volume of itself is only one factor. You also need to consider board design issues eg nose rocker, tail size, rails, contours. Note that most board sites tend to suggest volume that is too low

I suggest that you stop focusing so much on the board. Maybe get a slightly bigger board and then focus on you, on what you need to do in order to carve or cutback or whatever. Watch videos on body and foot positions, arm movements etc

Carve turns can be hard to learn because you need an open face and some space. Point breaks are excellent; beach breaks not always (try higher tide waves).

Hope that helps

NomadSurf wrote: It was then that instead of buying another board that I was placed onto my brother 6'5 JS and that was were I think my progression began to halter. The board felt like a boat to me and I could by no means turn or maneuver it at all.

You are right about your brother's 6'5", but in the opposite way than you think. Had you learned to properly trim, engaged, release and control the rail, and execute a strong bottom turn on that 6'5", you would be able to ride "anything" now.
If you can't Carve now, you shouldn't even be looking at "volume". Forget about volume until you can turn.

NomadSurf wrote: This brings me to where I felt I have struggled the most. Since I had started surfing my brothers board at a young age to even now I have felt I lack the ability to carve, and keep the speed through any type of turn that is not trimming. My frustration has always been bogging my rails or feeling as if the board won't drive with enough speed as I would want.

Sound exactly like the symptoms of riding too small of a board.

dtc wrote:To be honest you seem to be after a board that will cure a technical weakness. But as regular poster waikikichan says, it’s the Indian not the arrow ie there isn’t a board that will make you better at carving turns.

That said, lower volume boards require a lot more input from the surfer to create speed; so while shorter boards allow easier trim turns, they can be harder for carve turns

Low 30L at your weight is probably what a very good surfer would surf (Dane Reynolds at 180lbs surfs around 29-30L).

Have a read of this

https://surfsimply.com/surf-coaching/vo ... ht-ratios/

It suggests you should be up around 35-38L; although volume of itself is only one factor. You also need to consider board design issues eg nose rocker, tail size, rails, contours. Note that most board sites tend to suggest volume that is too low

I suggest that you stop focusing so much on the board. Maybe get a slightly bigger board and then focus on you, on what you need to do in order to carve or cutback or whatever. Watch videos on body and foot positions, arm movements etc

I did see the surf simply volume chart and had a listen to there podcast as well on an episode where they covered it and it is actually what did really get me thinking. I have never surfed more then I have here in Hawaii and I feel I have improved my form a lot, I think for me it may be my compression and heavy front foot, or just the overall shifting of my weight properly at the proper points on the wave. It is tough getting myself on film to review with how crowded some of the breaks are here on the N.S and on top of that going to some other places where the breaks are very far out from the beach like Lanikea and Chuns.

waikikikichan wrote:You are right about your brother's 6'5", but in the opposite way than you think. Had you learned to properly trim, engaged, release and control the rail, and execute a strong bottom turn on that 6'5", you would be able to ride "anything" now.
If you can't Carve now, you shouldn't even be looking at "volume". Forget about volume until you can turn.

Sound exactly like the symptoms of riding too small of a board.

What do you think I should back up to then, should I look first at my bottom turn and how to properly execute that and once I feel I can go vertical then continue on? If there is anything you suggest for form or practice on compression and keeping my balance while so far compressed that would be great. For film I did have of myself I definitely think I always surfed standing up to tall. that was a big problem for me with how I lost speed and would not work the board as soon as I dropped in. I think I figured out how to drop in and compose my upper body better along with my knees, but when I watch film of professionals and there compression it almost seems like their back knees are tucked in and almost touching the board between there legs on some bottom turns.

I also don't know if any film of me via my go pro mounted on my board would be any help to you guys in evaluating me. But if you might think it will help I can definitely post it.

NomadSurf wrote:I think for me it may be my compression and heavy front foot, or just the overall shifting of my weight properly at the proper points on the wave.

So you realize your problem is your lack of technique.
So it does not matter what Length board you get 5'11" or 6'2".
So it does not matter what Volume the board is 32 liter or 35 liters.
So it does not matter what Brand, Construction or Fin Set Up the board is.

A good surfer can ride ANY board well. A rider with improper technique will still ride ANY board improperly even if the board is the "correct size and volume" for their height and weight. What's the best homerun bat that I can buy ?

If you could go back in time and forget the notion that the 6'5" was impossible to turn, you'd be totally ripping now. Sadly you can't go back in time, but YOU CAN have a change of MIND in the present. Start again with the basics, paddle, pop, stance, bottom turn, setting your rail, trim and learning to break trim to turn. My advice is to not ride a 6'5" for a few weeks, but ride a 7'0" ( a full foot over your head ) for a few weeks. Then you'll be able to turn that 6'5".

Please post your GoPro video.

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waikikikichan wrote:
A good surfer can ride ANY board well. A rider with improper technique will still ride ANY board improperly even if the board is the "correct size and volume" for their height and weight. What's the best homerun bat that I can buy ?

If you could go back in time and forget the notion that the 6'5" was impossible to turn, you'd be totally ripping now. Sadly you can't go back in time, but YOU CAN have a change of MIND in the present. Start again with the basics, paddle, pop, stance, bottom turn, setting your rail, trim and learning to break trim to turn. My advice is to not ride a 6'5" for a few weeks, but ride a 7'0" ( a full foot over your head ) for a few weeks. Then you'll be able to turn that 6'5".

Please post your GoPro video.

I hear exactly what you are saying, I guess I am just caught up in the typical fear of the unknown as well as the fear of a larger board now, even though it will improve my skills and thats all that matters.

The videos from California are about a 2 years old I think, those are all me in the excel wetsuit and my shorter hair. So the video from Hawaii in my yellow rash guard is most current.

California...

Oahu...

Sorry videos wouldn't post through this sites file attachment so had to put them on Vimeo. Let me know what you guys see and think!

It's difficult to tell where you are having problems because you can't see what the wave is doing except right where the camera is pointed. Looks like you are very active on the wave. I have trouble figuring out stuff from the gopro perspective. Others might have more to say. Overall I think looking for the best board is a difficult thing. Learn to use the board you have but if you want to get a better board find a local shaper and be honest with him where you are and what your problems are and see if he can make the best board for you. Most likely something longer if you are bogging out. On a longer board speed comes from the interaction between the board and the wave but on a shortboard the speed comes more from the surfer. On a shortboard you weight and unweight essentially jumping up to the top of the wave. This keeps you from losing speed going uphill. When you turn it increases friction and that slows you down but you can make up for that by weighting into the turn and unweighting out. A flatter board with less rocker holds speed better in turns however they are more difficult to turn. So the solution to your problem... I don't know but my guess is you need to surf more.

NomadSurf wrote:This brings me to where I felt I have struggled the most. Since I had started surfing my brothers board . . . I have felt I lack the ability to carve, and keep the speed through any type of turn that is not trimming. My frustration has always been bogging my rails or feeling as if the board won't drive with enough speed as I would want.

Maybe you need to start observing the waves you're riding more carefully. Why do you lose speed on carving turns? Does the loss of speed after a carving turn occur on small waves or big waves or all waves? Are you keeping track of the waves where everything works right? What makes those waves, where everything worked, different? Do you need to approach carving differently when you take off angled or straight? If you do, why? What difference does your board make on carving turns on small mushy waves and big steep waves? Have you found occasions when you gained speed after a carving turn? If yes, what kind of wave were you on (big? small? steep? mushy?) What kind of positioning did you have on your board? What kind of positioning should you have on your board?

I think you might be better off keeping a surfing journal than buying a new board. Before you buy a new board, you'd be better off surfing your current board and verifying the ways that board fails you. Does it have enough float? If it were wider or narrower would it solve your problem? You have to start keeping track of your questions and remember the answers the waves give you during your surf session. If you're going home after a surf session and not remembering your waves, then you're not progressing. I think it's important for every new and veteran surfer to be aware that surfing technique changes or adapts to the possibilities different waves present a surfer. There is no one-size-fits-all surfing technique because every wave has its own particulars. Just my two cents.

Nomad, what is the Make, Model and Size fins you’re using ?

oldmansurfer wrote:It's difficult to tell where you are having problems because you can't see what the wave is doing except right where the camera is pointed. Looks like you are very active on the wave. I have trouble figuring out stuff from the gopro perspective. Others might have more to say. Overall I think looking for the best board is a difficult thing. Learn to use the board you have but if you want to get a better board find a local shaper and be honest with him where you are and what your problems are and see if he can make the best board for you. Most likely something longer if you are bogging out. On a longer board speed comes from the interaction between the board and the wave but on a shortboard the speed comes more from the surfer. On a shortboard you weight and unweight essentially jumping up to the top of the wave. This keeps you from losing speed going uphill. When you turn it increases friction and that slows you down but you can make up for that by weighting into the turn and unweighting out. A flatter board with less rocker holds speed better in turns however they are more difficult to turn. So the solution to your problem... I don't know but my guess is you need to surf more.

Thank you for your response, I definitely have to try harder to get some footage from the beach, I think I have been learning the past few years to harness the energy from my weight but I still don not have the proper form in all areas. I have never surfed more then I have in Hawaii though and that alone has definitely made me a better surf I can tell.

RinkyDink wrote:Maybe you need to start observing the waves you're riding more carefully. Why do you lose speed on carving turns? Does the loss of speed after a carving turn occur on small waves or big waves or all waves? Are you keeping track of the waves where everything works right? What makes those waves, where everything worked, different? Do you need to approach carving differently when you take off angled or straight? If you do, why? What difference does your board make on carving turns on small mushy waves and big steep waves? Have you found occasions when you gained speed after a carving turn? If yes, what kind of wave were you on (big? small? steep? mushy?) What kind of positioning did you have on your board? What kind of positioning should you have on your board?

I think you might be better off keeping a surfing journal than buying a new board. Before you buy a new board, you'd be better off surfing your current board and verifying the ways that board fails you. Does it have enough float? If it were wider or narrower would it solve your problem? You have to start keeping track of your questions and remember the answers the waves give you during your surf session. If you're going home after a surf session and not remembering your waves, then you're not progressing. I think it's important for every new and veteran surfer to be aware that surfing technique changes or adapts to the possibilities different waves present a surfer. There is no one-size-fits-all surfing technique because every wave has its own particulars. Just my two cents.

I think what you are saying has a lot to do with what I am experiencing. I used to never think about finding the best part of the wave to maneuver or when to execute a good bottom turn. I used to just stand up and simply thought I was surfing the wave down the line and that was it. That inexperience I think brought me away from the pocket and power of the wave, without me even knowing. I think I am aware of that now but my form and technique is lacking so when I go for any maneuver (bottom turn or cutback) I lose momentum or fall before I am back in that power point on the wave.
I think especially in Hawaii coming here knowing I was going to surf more then I ever have, have gotten into great habits before and after surfing. I have tried to go in with goals set to accomplish, and things I would like to work on out in the water. I have started doing even more research, watching film, and this site, as well as listening to surf podcasts like surf simply, and surf mastery podcast while at work. A journal would really be an excellent way to keep those notes and goals as well as help me remember the surf I had 3 weeks ago by just looking back. Could probably be great motivation as well so that I see progress or lack there of it!

waikikikichan wrote:Nomad, what is the Make, Model and Size fins you’re using ?

So in my local shaped board, what I rode in the California video. I had a Quad set up with the FCS II Gorilla medium Fins.

In the Hypto Krypto here in Hawaii it had the JJF fins in a thruster.

Also side not Wakikichan, want to say I checked out your website that was linked in your profile and the descriptive information and training tips you give, plus with the pictures and diagrams on them is awesome. Im glad I found that and will be checking it out even more.

NomadSurf wrote: A journal would really be an excellent way to keep those notes and goals as well as help me remember the surf I had 3 weeks ago by just looking back. Could probably be great motivation as well so that I see progress or lack there of it!

I don't keep a journal , but I keep kicking myself for not keeping one. There was a day I went out not too long ago and the surf was overhead++. I remember thinking that the last time I had gone out in waves that size was a year ago. I had lots of thoughts and things I figured out about riding in those kinds of waves--A YEAR AGO--but I couldn't remember any of those insights on the day I needed them. I remember distinctly thinking that I wished I had written some of that stuff down Anyway, that's why I recommend a journal. Keep track of the swell direction, size, tide, and other factors that come into play (backwash, currents, etc.) as well as a little section for notes about things you figure out. My plan is to review my last session notes before starting my next session. Good luck.

Now that we've seen the videos of your surfing, I think we can all agree nothings technically wrong with the board. You paddle well, your pop is clean, you come off the bottom okay. Overall intermediate level surfing that just needs some fine tuning. I take back what I said of riding a 7'0" for a few weeks, you already have a good base of the basic moves. Some notes though:
California:
1) Your Backside surfing has much better form than your Frontside. WHY ? Back hand is dead on your frontside, but a lot more active on your backside. 1:03 is very good as your back hand comes across your chest
2) Your frontside cutback was good. Nice lead with the front hand and opening of the chest to the beach. Then the weave back onto the face was great.

Hawaii:
1) Can't say much about your backside surfing, because there was no video of it. Can't really say your front side improved over the first video, although you do move your arms a lot more.
2) You do this crazy herky jerky move at :15 and :40. There's no flow, just swinging your arms violently. Just rip and rip and then bucked off. You are trying too hard. You're not listening to the wave.
3) Notice through out your video your front arms swings in only a horizontal plain. It should be rising and falling, pointing to where you want to go / leading the action.

Go back and watch both videos and only watch one thing, say just your back hand. Then watch again and only focus on your front hand. Then watch your favorite surf video and see how you can tell what the surfer will do before he does it and compare it to your surfing.

NomadSurf wrote:So in my local shaped board, what I rode in the California video. I had a Quad set up with the FCS II Gorilla medium Fins.

In the Hypto Krypto here in Hawaii it had the JJF fins in a thruster.

That's another reason why you delayed / stunted your surfing technique. You should've been fully competent on your turns/cutbacks on a Thruster BEFORE getting on a Quad setup.

waikikikichan wrote:

NomadSurf wrote:So in my local shaped board, what I rode in the California video. I had a Quad set up with the FCS II Gorilla medium Fins.

In the Hypto Krypto here in Hawaii it had the JJF fins in a thruster.

That's another reason why you delayed / stunted your surfing technique. You should've been fully competent on your turns/cutbacks on a Thruster BEFORE getting on a Quad setup.

Not trying to hijack the thread, just a quick question:

For a guy like me who's just trimming trying to get to OP's level of surfing (horizontal maneuvers), is there a recommended order of fin setup to try? thruster > quad/single? single > thruster > quad? What about things like 2+1?

waikikikichan wrote:Now that we've seen the videos of your surfing, I think we can all agree nothings technically wrong with the board. You paddle well, your pop is clean, you come off the bottom okay. Overall intermediate level surfing that just needs some fine tuning. I take back what I said of riding a 7'0" for a few weeks, you already have a good base of the basic moves. Some notes though:
California:
1) Your Backside surfing has much better form than your Frontside. WHY ? Back hand is dead on your frontside, but a lot more active on your backside. 1:03 is very good as your back hand comes across your chest
2) Your frontside cutback was good. Nice lead with the front hand and opening of the chest to the beach. Then the weave back onto the face was great.

Hawaii:
1) Can't say much about your backside surfing, because there was no video of it. Can't really say your front side improved over the first video, although you do move your arms a lot more.
2) You do this crazy herky jerky move at :15 and :40. There's no flow, just swinging your arms violently. Just rip and rip and then bucked off. You are trying too hard. You're not listening to the wave.
3) Notice through out your video your front arms swings in only a horizontal plain. It should be rising and falling, pointing to where you want to go / leading the action.

Go back and watch both videos and only watch one thing, say just your back hand. Then watch again and only focus on your front hand. Then watch your favorite surf video and see how you can tell what the surfer will do before he does it and compare it to your surfing.

Thank you for the advice and the compliments that means a lot to me. I think overall I have definitely noticed that my back hand carving comes more naturally, since I have to open up my chest more and get the backhand more involved. My front side has definitely been harder to master. When I watch my self in that footage, I feel that I "unload" all of my energy before the lip, with poor technique and then once I am at the X point of the lip I have already unsprung and like you said misjudged the wave threw my balance off and usually end up falling off or making it look horrible. One thing I wanted to ask is this and maybe you can tell me if it is bad technique. When I pop up I feel like I bring both arms up to my chest level, and also both on my front side rail, should I work harder to fix that on my pop up? When I watch most surfers there pop up is more relaxed and they basically keep there hands down close to each individual rail and then relaxed throughout the bottom turn until they use there hands to guide like you said. Hopefully over the next couple days I can take some more video from the beach POV and post it here for you guys to see. The wave size and wave face I think are critical at this point for me to see and get better.