length, width or girth (that's what she said). Which is best

[benjl]

Soo i've had another interesting experience which has been bugging me to get your thoughts on
I took my 6'10 out the other day for the first time in actual clean and the most sizable condition's i've tried it in (only around 2m wave height) but I usually use my shortboard for anything bigger.
And surprisingly to me, I struggled to catch any waves for the first hour despite doing all the basics and everything I do on my shortboard. Waves rolled by that I knew I would've caught on my much harder short board. I Kept popping up but then getting stuck on top of the wave and having too much volume to be able to drop down the wave face!! It was very frustrating. I was even stamping my front foot down on the board to try make it drop but with no success.
I ended up completely changed my surfing style to paddling harder, earlier, longer and literally popping up the second the wave took the board so that I was already up while the wave continued to build power / steepness.

The big surprise to me was that I had to paddle more than my shortboard to catch a wave and unless I got the timing right, I would miss the wave, set stuck on the top of it or nose dive if the wave peaked up in steepness very rapidly.
The great thing was that when i did get it all perfect on a good wave, I got really long rides (15-20sec) where the wave broke multiple times and I could stay on it by turning which ever way it went. This was definately something I don't get on my other board.

The next interesting or frustrating thing I found were the rounded fat rails that it has and how much I hated it compared to my shortboard when it came to turning. It made the long rides almost boring as I couldn't flick it around easily without running the risk of the rail digging in to the water and wanting to roll the board rather than slice through it on my shortboard. The surf shop did say that it didn't have performance rails or anything when they were repairing it and that it was a good learner / intermediate board. I was surprised as this was one of the first times on a wave that it felt like the board was holding me back compared to feeling that its usually my skill level on the shortboard. I'm sure if I spent more time on this board I would master turning it more etc but the odd thing that shocked me was that I feel more stable and confident on my narrow shortboard than i did on this funboard and wished I had brought it with me instead!

Have any of you found that before when surfing a bigger board that is non-performance orientated that at some point you hit a bit of a wall with it?

SO- here's where my curiosity started coming in!@
The 6'10 is 21 3/4 wide and 2 3/4 thick with rounded edges, a slight single concave, slight pointed nose and a touch of rocker. I would estimate around 47L volume.
My usual Anderson is 6'3, 19 1/2 wide and 2 1/2 thick with hard edges from the back third, thin rails, very thin long nose with lots of rocker, deeper single concave and I would estimate around 30L of volume? See the images.
My other fish next to the Andrerson is 6'2, 20 1/2 and 2 1/2 and with volume apparently 37L. Flat rockered, flat concave and medium rolled rails.
Bare in mind that I am 70kg and 5'8.

I love the anderson but I would like a touch more volume to aid in paddling- in essence, the best of both of these boards. Where would be the best place to add volume to it to ensure that it still has the same turning characteristics but without any of the problems I have with my longer board? Is the best place for volume in length, width or thickness? And where abouts on the board do you add this? Or do you look at epoxy to keep the same dimensions but with aided bouyancy? Can you get a board that kind of ticks all boxes or is that a never-ending search?
One thing that I particularly like with it is the long thin nose which means that I never get stuck at the top of a wave anymore and can always make the steep drops if needed. This also means I can duck dive better and never get caught being sucked back with the wave if it has a heavy lip and is about to break.

I'm due to head to Bali later in the year for a holiday (ironically my 6'10 was made there by Bruce Hansel), so thought why not even get him to make my own board while there??! He said they cost from $400usd for roughly what i'm after which is a steal compared to good boards here.
So here is what I was proposing and tell me whether you think it would work??

Maybe go 6'6 length but keep with thin and hard rails for the back third of the board, single to double concave, generous nose rocker, moderate tail rocker and not sure about a swallow or squash tail? 6 + 6oz glassing on top with 6oz on the bottom and fin plugs for both quad / thruster set ups. Or will adding a quad set up option then change the way the whole board outline would need to be?
I would want it to handle from 1-6ft + and essentially be able to be used as my one size fits all board (to an extent) and keep my 6'10 for really small days or when my gf wants to come with play in the whitewash.

Sorry for all the questions but I lay awake thinking about it all lastnight and couldn't help but wonder what if..

[dtc]

Huh, almost as long as my comments!

Skipping around and not answering all your questions - longer boards get on the wave earlier when the wave is 'flatter' and so its easier to pop up (board isnt heading downhill) and you have a greater window in which to pop up. However, because the wave hasnt started curling as much, its 'forward' power is much lower - it wont push the board along. So you need to provide that forward momentum through paddling. There is more paddling involved, its just a function of catching the wave earlier. Even though you were only on a 6ft10, you were still catching the wave earlier so needed to paddle more than the shorter board

And, of course, longer board surfing isnt tiki taka shortboard stuff. Its more graceful flowing movements down the field with beautiful through balls (a soccer reference seemed appropriate). Anyway, its 'same but different' in terms of surfing, as you found mixing them up (shortboard technique on a longer board) doesnt work very well

In terms of volume, thickness gives you the best bang for the buck. Firstly, a small change in thickness creates a big change in volume but doesnt change length or width and so the effect on the board ie how the board performs, is pretty minor.

This math is completely not accurate but it accurate enough to give you the idea

take your board's dimensions and then divide the volume by the length in inches. So 47l for a 6ft10 (82 inches) gives you .57 litre in volume per inch (who says surfers cant deal with metric and imperial measuring systems at the same time....). So every inch you add - assuming everything else is the same - gives you another 0.57l of volume (obviously its not that simple)

But if you divide the volume by the thickness in 1/4 inches, 47l at 2 3/4 (11 x 1/4 inch) gives you 4.2l per quarter inch. So if you added a 1/4 over the whole board, you would get another 4l in volume.

Obviously at some point a board becomes too thick to be useful and you have to start looking around at other things. But add another inch in length and another 1/4 in thickness and you probably get 6l extra in volume - so only need an extra inch plus the extra thickness to give you a much greater result (12 times more volume) than just the extra inch in length alone.

Of course, surfboard design is far more complex that this simplistic example, but you can see how it all works. The ideal solution is usually a combination of each dimension, of course. And then there are things like not making it thicker or wider (which are just the dimensions at the widest or thickest part) but not refining the nose or tail quite as much (ie not thinning the tail out as much, or having a more abupt change) - this adds 'thickness' without even changing the boards dimensions

firewire on their website have a 'customise this board' function where you can play around with the dimensions of a board and they tell you the change to volume - much more accurately than the above.

Keeping in mind you are turning off the tail, and that rails can be narrowed/hard rails to help turn, the best place for extra volume is under the chest. usually some extra thickness and probably a little bit more width and maybe a bit of extra thickness on the nose or tail. But then - reduced rocker helps paddling, if that is what you want. So there is another variable that isnt volume dependent ...

To be honest, the only way you are going to find out if you are right about your next board is to get the board you have designed (I cant see anything that seems 'wrong' for what you are aiming at - indeed, it looks like a pretty good analysis based on what you like from your current boards) and surf it. See whether it does what you hope it does. If it does - wonderful. If it doesnt, well at least you can blame the board for poor performances; but then you think about what wasnt quite right and tweak it for the next board.

[benjl]

Thanks DTC- that was some really useful and indepth answers! Great arithmatic as well!
Do you know why this post isn't going on the main page like it normally does? I thought this thread would be something that quite a few people may be intrested in with board dimensions and volume.

So you reckon it's probably best to look at thickness first, then length and then width?
I guess i'm lucky to have my Anderson board as a good starting point as there's lots I like about it and only little things I don't (volume).
Perhaps the same template of this board could be followed but being 1/4" thicker, 1" longer and with a quad set up added to aid in small days and speed.
Do you think it's best to do this rather than look at an epoxy board but roughly keeping the same dimensions?

Cheers!

[jaffa1949]

FIXED by move!
All of what Dtc said applies as well as what follows.
Sometimes when we go on a longer board we may well tend to position ourselves further back on the board in steeper waves, dramatically cutting paddle power even though we are saying in our head ( longer = better paddler). The fear of digging the nose pushes us back unconsciously.
the nose still only needs to be no more than an inch above the water.
Add to that rails, make such a difference in wave hold and contact.
Indo tip for you , start forming ideas of what does and doesn't work for you in planning your trip as the waves are so much better and consistent there.

Both the 6'2" and 6'3" will work in Indonesian and well for your height and weight.
I believe you are making really good progress and I would suggest you keep up with the 6'3" as your go to board for Bali. If you are not entirely confident in that idea go to the shaper with the 6'3" and talk about increasing the dimensions and slightly change the shape to a fuller nose keeping the rocker close to what is it is now. The swallow as you have now would be no problem and would add release in turns at the top of the wave, have the forward rails rounded getting more edged in the back section, ( talk with the shape about it).
You shouldn't have any difficulty duckdiving and I wouldn't recommend epoxy for extra buoyancy as you will find it too corky and more difficult to duck dive.
I would also recommend getting your fitness up as much as you can, sets of multiple power waves require that, being fit just adds to your confidence.

[benjl]

Thanks for your feedback Jaffa.

Unfortunately I am only in Bali for 8 days and going with my gf so I probably won't get too much time to go surfing At the moment we had booked accomodation in Kuta for 4 nights and then Ubud for 4 nights- funnily enough when we booked this trip I had never surfed or had any interest in surfing so it's timed itself well!!
Because of this I would probably have to order the board online ahead of time with Hansel to get it made in time for the trip than getting it made while i'm over there or be able to really speak to him personally or in depth about it.

Any reason you would suggest to add volume to the nose instead of adding volume in thickness?
I'm thinking of maybe going to 6'4 - 6'6 which would mean that the volume of foam under my chest area could expand a few inches but still keeping the relatively pointy and thin nose (but with a touch more volume). And then maybe going 20' wide instead of 19 1/2. Probably try and keep the rest of the shape and design the same.

Cheers

[dtc]

Have you booked your accom in Ubud? I stayed at a great villa, a bit out of town (so may not be for you) but comes with a driver to take you in and out of town as you need, about 15 min. if interested (although it seems like you have already booked)

Also, in Kuta, you can surf on the beach but you can also hire a surf guide for not much (relatively speaking) who will have a motorcycle (or maybe car) and can take you around to a point or one of the reefs. Even if you dont surf the reef, they are impressive to look at. Spend 3 hours with the guide one afternoon and send the GF to get her hair braided or a 2hr massage or something!

I used this guy http://silversurfbali.com/# and he can deal with everything from complete beginner to pretty experienced (highly recommended). Gives you a lesson at the same time

without trying to mindread Jaffa, I suspect he was saying that making the nose a bit bigger gives you volume benefits (wider board) and in the right place (under the chest). If the volume is located in the right place, you dont need as much to feel the same benefits.

[jaffa1949]

without trying to mindread Jaffa, I suspect he was saying that making the nose a bit bigger gives you volume benefits (wider board) and in the right place (under the chest). If the volume is located in the right place, you dont need as much to feel the same benefits.

Well read, put simply..... Wider in the nose than you are planning and thickness forward under the chest, an experience shaper will know exactly what is being asked .
If you search hard enough you can get a phone number to talk to the shaper Bali anew board will await you there are a number of shapers doing this.
Order well before you so foam and resin will cure and the new board will be stronger!