Next board after a 6' 7" downing epoxy- advice please

[Mweezy]

Looking to get another board. Recently been blessed with some steeper and more powerful waves and feel like my trusty 6' 7" thickerthanbarrywhitesshitonboxingday expoxy beast is not that well suited to them. This is mainly due to the feeling thats its a bit too bouyant and i tend to get stuck at the top of the wave rather than punching through it, as it were. Is this indicative of the wrong board, or does it show im not paddling fast enough or something? My boards also got a very flat rocker, ive heard this isnt great in steeper waves either.

I would like a shorter board as i often feel i migrate too far foward on my current board, then struggle to get my back foot back over the fins when i want to turn. Im guessing if i had a shorter one it would be easier to do this?

My boards getting increasingly beaten up and i want to get s new one. Any advice would be much appreciated, cheers.

[oldenglish]

You need to paddle harder and pick the wave up at the correct time. Going shorter and thinner just means you will have to paddle harder and pick the wave up at an even steeper angle which doesn't work well on flatter rockered boards if your not good at take offs.

[Mweezy]

Thanks Oldenglish, I did wonder if that was an issue. Cheers!

[benjl]

I recently had similar issues when I tried to take my flat rockered and higher volume fish to a different beach with much steeper and more powerful waves so I know your dilemma.

Paddling hard and early did help with getting on to the wave earlier and before it hit that critical steepness / folding point where the flat rockered board would just go nose diving in to the wave.
It helped to an extent although my board was only rated from 1-4ft so when the waves got around 4ft + and were steep, the board was clearly out of its comfort zone and almost uncontrollable on the wave face.

I've recently picked up a short board fish that is the same height as my other one but much thinner and with significant nose and a bit of tail rocker. It's been a godsend in the steeper conditions and really excels in them. I've also used it in small 1-2ft waves with little power and it still catches them although you have to paddle harder, drop in later although has been worth it to never nose dive and get better turning ability.
If I was going for another surfboard search I would probably try to find something with a touch more volume but with more nose and tail rocker to handle the conditions when it gets steep and more powerful.
In the end i've got a 6'10 for flat and easy paddle days and a 6'3 performance fish for bigger and steeper stuff.
Perhaps try the hard and early paddling first and then if that doesn't help, go look for a second board with a bit more nose and tail rocker if you can afford to have two boards.
Just my personal preference but the sacrifice in planing and volume for extra rocker has been well worth it my trials.

[dtc]

If you think about how the wave works, it might help you understand. The water in the wave isnt stationary but moving in a circular motion. As the wave starts breaking, the water is sucked up from the bottom and taken to the top. In a steep 'sucky' wave, the water is being sucked up fast. You are in that water and you are being sucked up to the top of the wave as well (in fat crumbly waves the water movement is much slower but still there). If you get sucked up too far, you hit the top of the wave (also called 'the ledge' or the lip). At this point you either fall off the back of the wave or the lip starts breaking and you get hurled forward with the lip (called 'going over the falls').

So what you need to do is either pop up under the lip or 'break the ledge'. If you google those terms you will find stuff, better than me explaining here (although I'm never quite sure how you 'break the ledge' on a steep sucky wave if you end up at the top, as a physical action it seems difficult).

Essentially, rather than taking off at the top of the wave while your board is still flat and then tipping down the face, you have to actually paddle down the face of the wave a bit then pop up. Its scary....

And this is where rocker plays a role. As you paddle down the face, the face is curving and if you have a flat rocker, your nose may dig into the wave despite you doing everything else right

Also, you need to paddle fast enough to overcome the water sucking you up to the top. And, to top it off, because steep waves usually come and jack up then break in a really short space, if you paddle too fast and end up just a bit too far forward, you get a wave on your head. Just a bit too slow and you get sucked up.

The other thing with a steep wave is that its hard to take off at an angle across the wave, because your rail wont dig into and grip the wave as you start (too steep, not enough water); plus you dont have the paddle speed (paddling across the wave ie across the direction the water is being sucked, may not create enough forward speed and you get caught by the water and sucked up) So you almost have to head straight down the wave to start, and if you hit the flats with a flat rocker board then ... nose dive. You can deal with this by an early turn (ie pop up, turn) or (possibly) by weighting the back of the board so the nose sits up, but its much easier in theory than in practice. Rocker helps a lot in this situation as well.

Just to comment on benji (who is totally correct about the board issues), you will also find that a narrower tail gives the water less to grab onto when its sucking you up the wave. Hence a fat tail, like a minimal or a fish, does make it harder because you are being sucked harder...narrower tail and you have more time. The longer the board (more volume), same deal.

Steep sucky waves are a real test - they are hard. The first time you encounter them, or the 5th, you will struggle. I mean, I've given you the textbook stuff above, but I'm totally pathetic on low tide with any power, so trust me that knowing and doing is not the same thing.

[benjl]

From the guru himself, that is a wonderful and accurate explanation! Far more scientific than mine haha. Take note Mweezy.

One other thing i've found with my shortboard is that because it has so much less volume and increased curvature in the nose (really pointy, long, thin nose) is that when I do get sucked up to that critical 'breaking the ledge' phase, I can sometimes push hard down on the nose and make the board start going down the wave. At this point the wave is very steep and near breaking but at least you can still drop down it and ride it out than having it roll on by which is what would happen on my other board with more volume in the nose. I would just get stuck at the top of the wave and have it roll by. It is also here where the rocker enables you to still be able to drop the face for the reasons DTC mentioned. I wouldn't be able to do this on my other flatter rockered board!

Let us know how you get on?

[dtc]

From the guru himself

Guru = long winded (dont confuse wordiness with ability!)

[drowningbitbybit]

Guru = long winded (dont confuse wordiness with ability!)

*also raises hand*

Back to the board issue... yes, a very flat-rockered may struggle in a steep wave. Of course, you can get in earlier and once you're up on the clean face it doesn't matter so much (compared to the all important bottom turn).

But if you're going to get a new board anyway... don't go mad and get something super-skinny or high performance. Get something similar to what you have now but shave a bit off the length, and a bit off the rails, and - most of all - get some proper rocker on the board.

[drowningbitbybit]

*DBBB goes completely off-topic*

you will also find that a narrower tail gives the water less to grab onto when its sucking you up the wave.

Hmm, never really thought about that, but what it does make me wonder is about the position of my knees when I paddle into a wave. I've noticed before that if I raise my knees off the board (I'm 6ft and riding a 6'2, so my feet are dangling behind (but out the water)) I catch waves much easier. But here's the thing - I've tested it out on flat water and it doesn't make a blind bit of difference to the angle of my board in the water, so it's not just that I'm edging my weight further forward. I think, perhaps, that it might be disengaging the tail of the board during that up-suck, and so less momentum is lost.

It won't make any difference to my surfing - I already raise my feet and curl my back, and I have no problems catching waves - but its just interesting to think about.

[oldmansurfer]

Less drag because your legs don't touch the water? I don't even remember what I used to do with my legs on a shorter board but if you hold your legs bent at the knees 90 degrees you bring your center of gravity slightly foreword which helps you get down a wave. I currently surf a board with much greater width in the tail and length than I used to. Does it make the board have more drag? I don't know but it does have more lift and it paddles great. My current board also has a whopping huge tail rocker compared to anything I rode before. I think tail rocker also helps on steep waves in that it is less impact when you get to the bottom of a steep wave so it's a smoother turn from vertical to horizontal

[benjl]

This new poster has hit the jackpot! 3 different gurus all posting their advice and thoughts, now all that's missing is guru Jaffa's input to the conversation

[jaffa1949]

Well stoke up the incense and put a garland round my neck.!
I consulted my stars and Swami Hedrivesfastkars and I got the cosmic go ahead.OM
For crying out loud guys rode and have ridden pipeline Chopes on longboards go back to the sixties and the boards were super flat very little rocker ( certainly lots came to disaster).
If you had a great bottom turn you could do it. Longboards cannot air drop and unless you were extremely talented you would only do basic lines at those spots.
The hardest waves IMO for longboards are very short period dumping shorebreaks. Hollow is not a problem if you can get a run at it.
Next 6'7'" is not a longboard no matter what current thinking is, by your description I'm inclined to think it is a generic fun boardy thingo so yes it may well be a dog! Might even be Bicish.
A vital set of facts are what is your weight and your real experience they too feature in this for you.
Epoxy can be a slight problem with its buoyancy as if can be too floaty to engage the tail and /or the rails, I have found with my epoxies I have to keep drive on them or they just tend to be pushed away in unuseful directions by the wave force.
A change in rocker would be my choice without losing much/or any length, I wouldn't go wider than 22" and I would suggest a rounded pin or a genuine swallow tail still with a supporting thickness.
If you go custom have the thickness and wider point forward so it draws you into the wave more easily.
You wouldn't have to really go the narrow pointed nose if the entry rocker is good and this keeps the volume up for paddling.
some boards to give you the idea

look at the Mctavish site for the Sumo, Carver Fish or the Bobsled
or the late Donald Takayama's site at the Flo Egg or Scorpion any of thse will do thejob and if they don't fit then I will point you elsewhere.
Keep in mind too that going from pretty average to short sharp steep waves usually equates to a short sharp steep learning curve and lots of wipe outs no matter what the board.
Even the pros take the time to tune to a break!

[dtc]

For crying out loud guys rode and have ridden pipeline ... If you had a great bottom turn you could do it. Longboards cannot air drop and unless you were extremely talented you would only do basic lines at those spots. The hardest waves IMO for longboards are very short period dumping shorebreaks. Hollow is not a problem if you can get a run at it.

Hah, I had a whole bit about how longboards/large boards can work on steep waves because you get in early, except that in shorter period steep waves its hard because you dont have time to turn and paddle or enough time to bottom turn if the wave is small...

Then decided my answer was already way too long so took it all out

That will teach me. Next time - the entire 17 volume answer! Anyone would think I am paid by the word (which I sort of am, just not here!)

If anyone wants to see some insane shorebreak surfing, google up 'surfing the wedge' (or perhaps, if anyone wants to see how to surf steep waves, have a look at what the successful guys do there)

BTW, the easiest way to surf steep waves - wait until the tide is higher.

[jaffa1949]

BTW, the easiest way to surf steep waves - wait until the tide is higher.

The secret answer is how does an elephant climb an oak tree?*
But dtc you have it backwards! Start at high tide and keep surfing as the tide gets lower ( This is seriously an answer) you get gradually accustomed to the ever increasing steepness!


Sit on an acorn and wait till spring!

[Mweezy]

Geez, thanks so much for all the info! So great to hear advice, I've started surfing since Ive been living in Japan (now 3 years in) and especially at the start my japanese wasnt up to understanding the local veterans' tips.

Il defo check out those boards thanks Jaffa. Kinda wanted to get a new stick before I go to Sumatra in Aug . . . doesnt look likely, oh well.

[Mweezy]

Forgot to say, I'm 5'11" 74 kgs. Experience wise sheesh i dunno. Ive surfed a fair bit over the past 3 years, esp. In the autumns and winters ( sea of japan season).

[benjl]

And the guru delivered!! Haha. That was interesting about high tide too with steep waves and adjusting to them. I had just always aimed to be at the beach around high tide anyway so ended up getting used to steep waves going in to low tide by chance!

Mweezy- you're pretty similar weight/height and skill level to me so these suggestions would prob work well based on my experiences.
The person I brought my fish off had one of those sumo's and it looked pretty cool

[jaffa1949]

Geez, thanks so much for all the info! So great to hear advice, I've started surfing since Ive been living in Japan (now 3 years in) and especially at the start my japanese wasnt up to understanding the local veterans' tips.

Il defo check out those boards thanks Jaffa. Kinda wanted to get a new stick before I go to Sumatra in Aug . . . doesnt look likely, oh well.

Where you heading to in Sumatra Quite a few waves that set up nice barrels and wailing walls you'll be dai ichi with a board of that type.

You could pick up a second hand on EBay if you've come back to,Australia shouldn't bust the bank and stop the trip.

[Mweezy]

I'm off to Simeulue Jaffa, you've actually already helped me out with some info on that on another thread I started in the travel forum, cheers again that.

Wish I could get the new stick before I go but Im not gonna have either the money or the time. I checked out the Sumo and it looks right up my street, now to trawl ebay and see if I can find a used one.

Ps this is completely off topic BUT

here in the Sea of Japan boards with a slightly concave back rocker are quite popular. When I ask why this is, the locals tell me they work well in the short period, wind driven swell we got get a lot here. Is this true?