Surfing Waves

What's up guys?

At the moment I have only one board in my place (there are two old ones on my aunts, for when I get to surf there) and that made me think it could be a good idea to have a reserve board on my quiver, in case this one needs fixing.

I also was trying to use this excuse to try some new measures. I noticed on a few bigger days, or when surfing hollower waves, once in a while I'd have trouble engaging the rail when heading to the flats with some good speed. I know this is something that isn't completely board related and I should work on being able to get more pressure on my feet on those situations, but I was wondering if a narrower board could make it easier. Currently I have a 6'0", around 20" wide (had to measure it).

I found a board that's 5'10" - 19 3/8" - 2 3/8", 4+1 fin setup. I think I might lose some paddling with those measures, but maybe I'd win some response once I'm on my feet.

What do you guys think? I was wondering if even though it is narrower and might give me a good response the board could be small for bigger waves (which is where I'd need that better response at higher speeds), making me have to get on them on the critical.

one thing to keep in mind that a wider board might be wider at the maximum point, but perhaps have a more curved outline than the narrower board or the narrower board might be widest further forward (or further back). In other words, the single width figure may or may not tell you the whole answer about whether its 'easier' to turn.

also 2 3/8 thick! I would sink straight to the bottom on that. At least duck diving would be easy.

I'm not quite sure what your concern is - is it not being able to do bottom rail turns when you have a lot of speed?

At the end of the day, there is nothing wrong with buying and trying, if the price is good; and if its the wrong board then sending onto a newer happier place

Is your current board a groveller type shape? If so, they tend to have full rails and wide tails which make them sketchy when turning hard for the reasons you highlighted ie. can't engage enough rail. Personally I don't like those kind of boards (although I do own one for some reason).

Narrower tail and tail rocker will likely help. I have only noticed this problem when I was out in waves with steep tubing 12 foot faces with my 7'6" board with a wide tail and little rocker. I did not have this problem with my longboard which has a wide tail and lots of tail rocker. But the shorter board with the wide tail gets a lot of speed on the drop and flies out into the flats before it settles down and I can turn it.

IanCaio wrote: I noticed on a few bigger days, or when surfing hollower waves, once in a while I'd have trouble engaging the rail when heading to the flats with some good speed.

Could you clarify " trouble engaging the rail" ?
1) Are you Tracking ( like rail road tracks ) and keep going straight ?
2) Are you Sliding out ?
3) Are you Bogging down in the turn and falling off ? If so which way, face first or back down ?

IanCaio wrote:I noticed on a few bigger days, or when surfing hollower waves, once in a while I'd have trouble engaging the rail when heading to the flats with some good speed.

Did u try smaller fins? Could be just that..

Sorry for the late reply, the topic didn't show on the "New posts" feed for some reason!

dtc wrote:At the end of the day, there is nothing wrong with buying and trying, if the price is good; and if its the wrong board then sending onto a newer happier place

I think that would be the board with less volume I've ever got, but I was willing to experiment for the price. Shame the guy already sold it, so back into looking what's available out there

Lebowski wrote:Is your current board a groveller type shape? If so, they tend to have full rails and wide tails which make them sketchy when turning hard for the reasons you highlighted ie. can't engage enough rail. Personally I don't like those kind of boards (although I do own one for some reason).

My current board is not really a groveller board, it's wide on the middle but the tail is narrower. I'll see if I can post a picture of later!

oldmansurfer wrote:I have only noticed this problem when I was out in waves with steep tubing 12 foot faces with my 7'6" board with a wide tail and little rocker.

It's not very recurring, the board usually respond well. But it did happen maybe a couple of times in bigger days, usually when delaying the bottom turn a bit.

waikikikichan wrote:Could you clarify " trouble engaging the rail" ?
1) Are you Tracking ( like rail road tracks ) and keep going straight ?
2) Are you Sliding out ?
3) Are you Bogging down in the turn and falling off ? If so which way, face first or back down ?

It's like I'd go down the face, then lean to the face as I'd starting the bottom turn and realize the board isn't responding like I expected, it keeps its drive forward and I end up falling off. It only happened on f/s waves so far, but it happened few times so maybe I just didn't find a b/s wave where the issue arised too.

Tudeo wrote:Did u try smaller fins? Could be just that..

That's another thing I might need to invest later! I'm still using some standard cheap plastic fins, if I'm not mistaken medium size. I was just not looking at it yet because I think I have to find a backup board first.

IanCaio wrote:It's like I'd go down the face, then lean to the face as I'd starting the bottom turn and realize the board isn't responding like I expected, it keeps its drive forward and I end up falling off. It only happened on f/s waves so far, but it happened few times so maybe I just didn't find a b/s wave where the issue arised too.

So the trouble engaging the rail is after your bottom turn. But that only happens on Bigger waves. How is setting your rail on smaller waves, no problem ?
To clarify: "it keep its drive forward" means the board continues straight in towards the beach ?
1) Where / How is your stance at that moment ? On the pad ?
2) Where are you looking at that moment ? to the flats ? down the line ?
3) What differences do YOU think is happening on bottom turn on the Bigger wave compared to smaller waves ?

waikikikichan wrote:

IanCaio wrote:It's like I'd go down the face, then lean to the face as I'd starting the bottom turn and realize the board isn't responding like I expected, it keeps its drive forward and I end up falling off. It only happened on f/s waves so far, but it happened few times so maybe I just didn't find a b/s wave where the issue arised too.

So the trouble engaging the rail is after your bottom turn. But that only happens on Bigger waves. How is setting your rail on smaller waves, no problem ?
To clarify: "it keep its drive forward" means the board continues straight in towards the beach ?
1) Where / How is your stance at that moment ? On the pad ?
2) Where are you looking at that moment ? to the flats ? down the line ?
3) What differences do YOU think is happening on bottom turn on the Bigger wave compared to smaller waves ?

It happens before I bottom turn, I meant I lean my body towards the wave face as I'd do on a bottom turn but the board didn't respond, so it keeps going towards the beach.
It's been a while since it last happened, so I can't remember everything in details, but I think my front foot was in the right place and can't say for sure but maybe my back foot was a little bit forward on the traction pad. I was a bit crouched, not much. I looked for the flats for a moment because there were people paddling in the wrong place and can't say for sure if I later looked back to the wave face .

I honestly thought I had my big share on why it happened, more speed means you have less time to fix anything you did wrong from the beginning, but I also thought the board width could be another factor. Think it would hurt more than help narrowing it down?

But what is the difference when you do it on a SMALL wave compared to a BIG / steeper wave ?

You said your foot is in front of the pad. The bottom turn is a turn, so you need to put your foot over the fins which are the rudders and the "tires" to keep contact with the ground. Also weight over the fins lifts the nose, effectively shortening the board length, so you can swing it around quicker.

But, I think your problem on Bigger waves is not the board, but in racing we call "Braking Marker". When you're cruising at 40 kph and come up to a turn, you're off the throttle at marker 6, on the brakes on marker 8 and start leaning over at marker 10. But at 140 kph you need to be off the throttle at marker 1, on the brakes at marker 4 and start leaning over at 8 just to make the same corner. Things happen much quicker and your board makes up much ground in less time, so your reactions have to almost unconscious.

I don't think the stock plastic fins are causing the board to straighten out. Slip Out, yes, if you over power them. But it seems they're overpowering you.

IanCaio wrote: I looked for the flats for a moment because there were people paddling in the wrong place and can't say for sure if I later looked back to the wave face

By looking at them, you temporarily lost your focus and got distracted, rail bit and you got thrown off. It happens. Where you look is where you go. You looked at them, your board went where you looked. In racing or just general street riding, it's called "Target Fixation". Look at the pole, you run into the pole. Look thru the turn, go thru the turn. If they weren't there, you'd probably would've made the wave.

Thanks waikikikichan, I think you're right, probably on those occasions I either made a mistake during the pop up I couldn't fix in enough time or I distracted myself making me miss the turn. I still need to get a backup board, but probably I don't have much reason to go narrower right now..

waikikikichan wrote:I don't think the stock plastic fins are causing the board to straighten out. Slip Out, yes, if you over power them. But it seems they're overpowering you.

I was just wondering, isn't it the opposite? I thought carbon fiber fins were more flexible making the board slip more, for those carves and snaps that throws a lot of water. So they actually hold the board tighter and plastic fins are the ones which are a bit loose?

IanCaio wrote:I was just wondering, isn't it the opposite? I thought carbon fiber fins were more flexible making the board slip more, for those carves and snaps that throws a lot of water. So they actually hold the board tighter and plastic fins are the ones which are a bit loose?

Size is much more of a factor than material. Buy some cheap smaller fins off ebay or wherever, just the cheapest ones you can find, and give them a go (eg if you are surfing M5 / medium, try M3/small). And then dont be afraid to mix and match - M5 centre and M3 sides, or the reverse. If the fin size works better and you want to, then get some more expensive fins of the same size (although you probably wont notice a huge difference)

I only skim read the comments. heres my 10 cents.

sometimes your feet aren't on the right side of the board for the turn, and you lean into your turn but your weight is still pressing the outside rail, meaning you are doing the turn as usual but the board isn't turning. I've done this and my mates who crack up as i face plant explained to me what they saw. Now i can feel that happening but it will still happen now and then especially with booties on in winter.

as for fins the plastic ones are useless. you can hardly turn on them. the best way to explain it is when you bottom turn a good fin will project you either back up the face of the wave or down the line with speed. a mud fin will just change your direction and you will sit at the bottom of the wave in the pocket which isn't very fun on most waves.

i surf the fcs 2 templates because i'm lazy and like changing fins fast when i'm frothing and just arrive to the beach. the neo glass fins although a lower quality have flex patterns which some better surfers can generate speed off. an example is filipe toledo in small surf. however in big surf you need stiffer fins, i have the carbon reinforced ones. these fins give you instant or quick response with minimal flex near the base of the fin, and more flex near the tip. you can use these in big or small surf. As for size, i reckon the weight specifications are just guidelines, but i never like riding fins small, i'd rather them too big.

fins make a big difference, you can do things with the right set up with more drive and speed which makes surfing more fun. less performance fins can make a good surfer look average. one of my mates is a much better surfer than me but surfed with the plastic fcs 2s. he looked average because he couldn't bounce or pop off the bottom turns like he can with good fins. if you can push hard on your bottom turns and get high up the face of the wave, it makes it fun when top turning or whatever your skill set will allow you to do.

IanCaio wrote: I thought carbon fiber fins were more flexible making the board slip more, for those carves and snaps that throws a lot of water. So they actually hold the board tighter and plastic fins are the ones which are a bit loose?

Look to the technology in Carbon Fiber (CF) road bicycles. They can apply the CF in a way to make the frame rigid side to side, so when the rider stomps on the cranks, the frame doesn't flex. But they also made compliant vertically so road bumps can be absorb and not buck the rider around.
For fins, manufacturers say "Engineered Flex", which is similar to what they do in bicycles. They can now makes fins stiff at the base and flexy at the tip. Look to Futures Fin in there Tech Flex and Black Tips models. The Tech Flex have CF at the base and tip but none in the middle, so it bends in the middle. The Black Tips have CF on the leading edge but nothing at the trailing edge, so it twists front to back. The old "X" and "Carbon series" fins from FCS were way way too stiff. There's probably a reason you don't see them anymore.

one0one wrote: as for fins the plastic ones are useless. you can hardly turn on them.

Funny, I basically only compete on stock FRP fins. I like the way the FCS Glassflex and Futures Composite (bone colored) fins ride. For my weight and turning, Carbon and Fiberglass fins don't give me as much input and traction control as FRP fins. But I do agree the real plastic rubbery fins you get on dept./sports store's cheap boards, flex out too much. But the stock fins from FCS and Futures work well for me.

Very clarifying waikikikichan, thank you a lot! I still have to study a little bit about fin dynamics to choose what I think is better suited for me, but I believe in my level I should look for a set of fins with more drive and less looseness? Was thinking the latter is probably more useful for very skilled surfers that often want to disengage the fins during carves for throwing lots of spray?

waikikikichan wrote:But I do agree the real plastic rubbery fins you get on dept./sports store's cheap boards, flex out too much. But the stock fins from FCS and Futures work well for me.

Well, I'm using a very cheap set of fins, but I'm not sure if they flex too much (can't say much because I heard even fins that look solid might flex a lot while you surf). I keep wondering if I'll notice a difference if I user better quality ones. I'll either try my friends carbon fins someday or simply risk buying an average price set to figure it out!

IanCaio wrote: I believe in my level I should look for a set of fins with more drive and less looseness?

'Looseness' means 'easier to turn' - but less drive, as you say.

If you feel at the moment that you are finding it hard to turn, then move a bit toward being loose. Its highly unlikely that on the waves you surf (and that most of us surf) that you will spin out due to having too small fins (and if you do, well, enjoy!). But, as always, get more of one thing and you lose something else.

My personal view - too much fin causes you to 'track' - go straight. I hate tracking, drives me nuts; you want to turn and you cant or its a huge effort. Unless you are riding fast reef breaks where the ride is 'catch wave, go as fast as possible straight through the barrel', then turning is an integral part of surfing. So I go for smaller fins and try to pick up the speed (if needed) through pumping or 'face weaving' (doing little S turns up and down the face).

summary: drive is great for beginners, it gets you up and along the face. But as soon as you get to the stage where you are attempting turns (of any kind), then drive is less important and turning is more important. So adjust your equipment. Or at least splash out on some cheaper smaller fins (just stock standard shape) and see what happens.

I think instead of owning multiple fin sets, it's better to just get some bigger rakey fins. They'll work ok on smaller days and perform when it gets bigger, and will be more stable. If you have fcs, just get the large Creatures of leisure template in fiberglass. All you'll ever need. If you have futures, or fcsII get the merrick large template. If you want something a bit smaller the FCS arc larges are pretty good too. Any one of those 4.

Or...get some large glass-ons. You'll never have to worry about fins again.

Regarding the paddling, if you have good technique then you can pretty much paddle into anything, big or small. Grovellers are over-rated, companies all ways advertise that greater volume and width will suddenly make you magically catch any wave, but I see people on these chunky grovellers paddling furiously and missing everything. I just ride one board and I have a back up in the same dims. I think it's better just to ride one board all the time, that way you'll get used to the sweet board. Master your craft!

dtc wrote:My personal view - too much fin causes you to 'track' - go straight. I hate tracking, drives me nuts; you want to turn and you cant or its a huge effort. ... So I go for smaller fins and try to pick up the speed (if needed) through pumping or 'face weaving' (doing little S turns up and down the face).

Totally agree, just like to add smaller fins offer ur board more upper range for wave size. Using bigger fins (the ones the board manufacturer recommended) I noticed on different boards riding backside on bigger waves it was difficult to set the rail because the wave surface felt too hard by the higher speed. That made the boards difficult to control.

After changing to smaller fins, it was a big step down in total fin surface, the boards felt fine and loose on the backside. It gave total control.

I didn't experience any loss of drive because just like dtc mentioned you don't need to push from the fins if u can use the wave's energy for generating speed.

Agree with whoever said those L merrick fins. They are so lively. But but 2 progressive in big surf