Surfing Waves

How do you go about getting outside when the board is too big to duckdive? I've found that you can time it when you first paddle out, but what about when you get off a wave and you are in the whitewash?

My answer is a little rough on you jb! It does however apply to many of the learning questions asked on this forum.
Sit on the beach watch the wave patterns learn where the rips and currents are where there is a break in the white water. use them to get out.

Learn the Eskimo or turtle roll. If you can do all that and get outside then you will have earned the right to be outside.

Where you are then in the surfing food chain is another matter. Be realistic about your abilities.
Surfing has an element of Darwin's natural selection, if you can't get outside you shouldn't be there, that applies no matter what the board or surf craft.
That said, there are people who get outside but are clueless about surfing's unwritten rules and how a lineup works and are unaware of the other surfers,IMO the worst in this are the skilled surfers who ignore all of the above even though they know the rules, learners can be forgiven (bless you says Dr Rev).

Back in the bad old days, peer pressure and heavy enforcement kept the learner surfers in waves that matched their skill levels.
It was always a significant day when you were allowed to enter the hallowed sanctuary of a stronger break.
This era is long gone ( thankfully) but too many people now try to surf breaks above their abilities because other than the wave, there is nothing to stop them. Sadly this is a reason for conflict now when surfing should be enjoyable.
Good guys should encourage you and help you understand how to surf, the rest, expletive deleted on them

Try the Eskimo roll, will help immensely

sound advice, here's how to turtle roll
(the article was put together with help from forum members)

As you are asking I guess you are fairly new to surfing - and so will be surfing beaches - potenially flatter beaches with slower breaks. If so you will much more white water to paddle through. Firslty, wait for a natural pause in the sets before beginning to paddle out, Turtle rolling does help, but don't overdo it, if the white water is weak enough just press up from your board and let it wash under your body. Also look where you are paddling, paddle between the peaks and away from the white water and push hard - you may well be able to get over the wave before it breaks. I would reserve turtle rolling for when you are otherwise going to get a hammering,

Ed McDead wrote:As you are asking I guess you are fairly new to surfing - and so will be surfing beaches - potenially flatter beaches with slower breaks. If so you will much more white water to paddle through. Firslty, wait for a natural pause in the sets before beginning to paddle out, Turtle rolling does help, but don't overdo it, if the white water is weak enough just press up from your board and let it wash under your body. Also look where you are paddling, paddle between the peaks and away from the white water and push hard - you may well be able to get over the wave before it breaks. I would reserve turtle rolling for when you are otherwise going to get a hammering,

Yeaah the push up and let the white water pass under is a good tip. Ed has coached well here. Always a good basic is to watch first for a while. keep going at it it sort of begins to become a natural part of your surf skills after a while what you do to get out.
One day in the future the rock off then you will really need your reading skills

I just had a quick read through of the "turtle roll" page and i was wondering, it says NEVER to hold your board near the nose as this will cause a backwards cart wheel....i was wondering why tho, as surely being a sea anchor at he frount of the board holding the nose down and thus the shape of the board acting as a foil as the wave rides over it would also push it down and holding the board more towards the tail would give the wave more leverage on the board, making it easier to flip it backwards!
or are my flat water physics null and void in the surf?

agreed. i thought that was interesting too. i'm new here, but FWIW: i grab as far forward as i can usually ending up at least 3/4 toward the nose facing the beach extended as vertical as possible under water. i cant remember the last time i was cartwheeled, though it's all about timing. i shoot to roll at the last second after sprinting toward the wave, targeting to shove the nose just under the whitewater, hang through the washing machine, then force the return flip as soon as i can so as not to loose ground. by doing this you can better manage the upwelling to get a little push toward the outside.

i'm sure it all depends on where you surf though

beachbumuk wrote:I just had a quick read through of the "turtle roll" page and i was wondering, it says NEVER to hold your board near the nose as this will cause a backwards cart wheel....i was wondering why tho, as surely being a sea anchor at he frount of the board holding the nose down and thus the shape of the board acting as a foil as the wave rides over it would also push it down and holding the board more towards the tail would give the wave more leverage on the board, making it easier to flip it backwards!
or are my flat water physics null and void in the surf?

There is a sweet spot towards the nose of your board that is the best place to grab for a turtle roll ( in Australia we call them Eskimo rolls)
and it is about the 3/4 mark forward.
Edited to add this remark in which I agree with beachbumuk never hold the board towards the back as this will really give you the cartwheels.
I feel the advice given in the turtle roll section is incorrect as it is no way borne out in 50 years of experience.
One thing I notice when I reread the original post was about paddling back out after a wave.
So don't turn around and try and go back out the way you just rode in, head to the channel or rip or what ever got you out in the first place and use it again and again and again.
It really wastes your energy for a good surf when you have to roll or continually duckdive and you keep getting pushed back.
There is actually a lot of thought needed in surfing around your water man/woman skills.

hehe glad to hear my experience in my usual sports sits true here too, otherwise my self taught style would really be for the high jump
jaffa i hear what your saying about rips and breaks in the waves, but a lot of the places i surf don't have that, they arn't nicely structured breaks, they tend to just be a fairly relentless bashing of the beach,lucky if we get 12sec periods, more often than not they are around 6 sec.
Yeah there are smaller sets than others but often you can't just paddle out and round the back...its straight through or nothing mostly...on the plus side, I've bagged myself a job in Sydney harbor for 6months from August so will be winging down that way soon to see what beaches i've been missing!

beachbumuk wrote:hehe glad to hear my experience in my usual sports sits true here too, otherwise my self taught style would really be for the high jump
jaffa i hear what your saying about rips and breaks in the waves, but a lot of the places i surf don't have that, they arn't nicely structured breaks, they tend to just be a fairly relentless bashing of the beach,lucky if we get 12sec periods, more often than not they are around 6 sec.
Yeah there are smaller sets than others but often you can't just paddle out and round the back...its straight through or nothing mostly...on the plus side, I've bagged myself a job in Sydney harbor for 6months from August so will be winging down that way soon to see what beaches i've been missing!

Welcome to better beaches to hang out your Ukbumon. Avoid Manly and Bondi, the most crowded beaches in Sdney although they are a little more tolerant of beginners than some of the other spots there are at least 23 main beaches in Sydney alone and several breaks inside Sydney Harbour.
If you do end at Bondi at the south end there is a notorious rip known as the backpackers express, multiple rescues everyday.
As you describe your home beaches ( which are?) you are doing the only thing possible, moving.

awesome, yeah theres that TV program about bondi rescue, very OTT but they do often show the land lubber tourists, drifting gracefully out to sea!
i will be working at a watersports centre in the harbour so I'm sure will get alot of guidance from locals as to where to go and failing that i will be throwing some questions your way! but its a good 4months away yet

my local is The Witterings...very temperamental, as its right up the english channel, but on a good day, really fun longboard days!
i also surf Putsbrough, Saunton, Woolacombe and that kind of area north devon.
ive never had much experiance of rips there, been to plenty of beaches with strong ones, but they were before my surfing days and ususaly to big to swim/bodyboard as the undertow was a beast and I sink like brick!

beachbumuk wrote:I just had a quick read through of the "turtle roll" page and i was wondering, it says NEVER to hold your board near the nose as this will cause a backwards cart wheel....i was wondering why tho, as surely being a sea anchor at he frount of the board holding the nose down and thus the shape of the board acting as a foil as the wave rides over it would also push it down and holding the board more towards the tail would give the wave more leverage on the board, making it easier to flip it backwards!
or are my flat water physics null and void in the surf?

The advice is correct.

Those who claim that holding the board towards the nose is the way to go are obviously only rolling under very small waves, in which it is possible to get away with incorrect technique.

Physics actually determines that holding the board near the nose will cause cartwheeling. Holding the board in the middle or even closer to the tail prevents this.

Typically riders of lightweight longboards try to use the nose grasping technique, but when a wave over a couple of feet is encountered they bail the board and rely on their leashes because their technique is faulty thus they never learn.

The bigger the wave the more important it becomes to roll from the middle or further aft.

I can explain why if you like.

.

I agree with beachbumuk never hold the board towards the back as this will really give you the cartwheels

feel the advice given in the turtle roll section is incorrect as it is no way borne out in 50 years of experience.

It's correct actually.

Those who say otherwise have only been rolling small whitewater, if you ever try the roll from the nose on a larger breaking wave you'll be toast... it's even a poor way to go on small whitewater .

I can get out the back on big boards ( 9 to 17 feet ) when the mal riders find it impossible.

As stated previously the central position is best unless rolling on the face of a breaking wave and needing to punch through the lip ( the most risky situation for cartwheeling ) in that situation drive the board forwards out to sea through the lip grasping the board towards the tail and following the board through the lip. A nose position in this situation is highly dangerous, anyone who says otherwise hasn't tried it.

Another factor is board weight, heavier is better.

.

Roy_Stewart wrote:

beachbumuk wrote:I just had a quick read through of the "turtle roll" page and i was wondering, it says NEVER to hold your board near the nose as this will cause a backwards cart wheel....i was wondering why tho, as surely being a sea anchor at he frount of the board holding the nose down and thus the shape of the board acting as a foil as the wave rides over it would also push it down and holding the board more towards the tail would give the wave more leverage on the board, making it easier to flip it backwards!
or are my flat water physics null and void in the surf?

The advice is correct.

Those who claim that holding the board towards the nose is the way to go are obviously only rolling under very small waves, in which it is possible to get away with incorrect technique.

Physics actually determines that holding the board near the nose will cause cartwheeling. Holding the board in the middle or even closer to the tail prevents this.

Typically riders of lightweight longboards try to use the nose grasping technique, but when a wave over a couple of feet is encountered they bail the board and rely on their leashes because their technique is faulty thus they never learn.

The bigger the wave the more important it becomes to roll from the middle or further aft.

I can explain why if you like.

.

i'm interested to hear more about your physics behind this. my personal experience: 10ft longboards, overhead, holding 3/4 toward the nose no problem. i don't get cartwheeled or stripped. but like i said, i'm sure wave type has it's part in this too....

This thread got me curious so i tried both ways last weekend on shoulder high mushburgers. the midline or tail method did seem more mellow under the wave but it felt slower to remount and so less efficient overall. with your method it felt like the rocker was helping stabilize the board even though it was so far forward, i'll probably start using it more when i get caught without speed. But personally i prefer to charge the whitewater and hold the nose down myself. if anything goes wrong, i just rotate the board about 45 degrees to release some pressure.

Roy_Stewart wrote:

beachbumuk wrote:I just had a quick read through of the "turtle roll" page and i was wondering, it says NEVER to hold your board near the nose as this will cause a backwards cart wheel....i was wondering why tho, as surely being a sea anchor at he frount of the board holding the nose down and thus the shape of the board acting as a foil as the wave rides over it would also push it down and holding the board more towards the tail would give the wave more leverage on the board, making it easier to flip it backwards!
or are my flat water physics null and void in the surf?

The advice is correct.

Those who claim that holding the board towards the nose is the way to go are obviously only rolling under very small waves, in which it is possible to get away with incorrect technique.

Physics actually determines that holding the board near the nose will cause cartwheeling. Holding the board in the middle or even closer to the tail prevents this.

Typically riders of lightweight longboards try to use the nose grasping technique, but when a wave over a couple of feet is encountered they bail the board and rely on their leashes because their technique is faulty thus they never learn.

The bigger the wave the more important it becomes to roll from the middle or further aft.

I can explain why if you like.

.

Please, physics dictates that the further back one holds the board, the more leverege there is against you, as well as the less directional control one has.

That is not to say that there is no such thing as too far forward, I've found having a central position, slightly towards the nose is best, just over a third from the nose. The only reason to hold further back is to have an easy position to thrust forward from without requiring any readjustment.

beachbumuk wrote:my local is The Witterings...

Ha ha ha, my local used to the witterings
Then I did the sensible thing and moved to Sydney
From a surfing point of view, its a whole different world.

Roy and I had a long debate on another forum, and it came to a fairly strong conclusion on my part that even though I was doing successfully what Roy believed shouldn't or couldn't be done in waves of substantial size, like Sunset beach in Hawaii when seriously caught inside, I have been successfully doing the "wrong thing" for over fifty years surfing.
I advocate this; take it to experiment do either technique and come up with your own answer.
I disagree with his conclusions but agree with his asserting them.
One thing I can say I have absolutely no experience of riding the wooden masterworks that Roy makes, and in that unridden realm what he says could hold true, but I have my doubts.

Roy on the other forum you know me as Otway1949
IMHO This forum is a much more civilised debating forum .
Nth Island trip coming up soon will meet up with you to chew the vegetarian fat

Well Jaffa if you ever try your technique while paddling up the face of a sizeable breaking wave you will regret it.

I've been surfing for 46 years by the way

I could demonstrate via diagrams if you like, but the fact of the matter is that rolling from the nose is the wrong way to go.

When rolling the weight of the board is needed to keep the surfer underwater, that's one reson why it is best to roll from the middle. Rolling from the nose reduces the weight and if the rider tries to drive himself down in to the water he'll end up lifting the nose of the board into the air, which is the worst thing to do as the wave can get under the nose. The rider who uses the nose rolling technique is doomed to doing an inefficient half roll.

It's easy to make claims as Jaffa is but all his answer tells me is that he's never rolled under to punch through the lip of a breaking wave over 6 feet in height, and that when getting through substantial whitewater he probably uses a half roll.

So, when getting through whitewater, roll from the middle of the board, when rolling a breaking wave drive ythe board through the by rolling from further back and thrusting the board forwards.

Looking forward to meeting you Jaffa

Roy i think I see the misunderstanding!
I roll off the side after paddling at speed at the white water, My hold is nearer the nose than the middle and the nose of the board is pointed downward. Has always worked for me, have not had the problems you suggest. Please do me the courtesy of not disputing my surfing as I have been fortunate enough to ride waves of all sizes all over the world and have no need to make exaggerated claims as my surfing has been its own reward
Only time I've had a truly scary mishap is when I paddled over a real behemoth of a wave at an outside bommie and had enough space to momentarily rest easy and then felt the dreaded drag of the huge lip throwing and pulling all the water behind the wave + me over the falls
I have been successfully doing the "wrong thing" for over fifty years surfing.
I still advocate this; take it to experiment do either technique and come up with your own answer.

Gotta say I agree with Jaffa on this one in experience and opinion. There are lots of ways to get outside, no need to be so strict on what's 'perfect' technique. This isn't golf.

That said, I have learned a bit from this thread so I'll keep asking: Roy, do you grab from the middle in short period surf too?